# Best History of the USA **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 6, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021 "2009-09-06T01:31:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021/41 "2009-09-08T12:51:19Z")
**Moderator Note** **RikWriter** , **magellan01** , keep your criticisms of Zinn on the content of what Zinn has to say, and refrain from attacking the intelligence or integrity of people who suggest reading Zinn. You’re edging towards the line, but don’t actually cross it. > [@Olentzero](#): > > **Guinastasia** , you don’t have to agree with my opinion or accept it. No skin off my nose. But to be singled out like that specifically _because_ you don’t think you’re going to agree with my opinion is just fucking rude. Agree with this. **Guin** , if you don’t want to consider **Olentzero** ’s opinion, you don’t have to, but don’t try to prevent him from offering it. Everyone, remember that you’re in Cafe Society, not the Pit, and keep your language civil and refrain from personal insults. twickster, Cafe Society moderator ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021/42 "2009-09-08T13:42:27Z")
Apologies for the swearing, **twickster**. I’ll try to keep my emotions in better check. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021/43 "2009-09-08T14:43:44Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > **Moderator Note** > > **RikWriter** , **magellan01** , keep your criticisms of Zinn on the content of what Zinn has to say, and refrain from attacking the intelligence or integrity of people who suggest reading Zinn. You’re edging towards the line, but don’t actually cross it. It was not my intention to attack anyone on this board and I don’t believe I did. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021/44 "2009-09-08T15:02:58Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > In any case, Zinn is not saying that the Civil War was fought to preserve capitalism, but that the vehicle of the war could be used to achieve the goal of emancipation and simultaneously forestall further challenges to the social order. That sounds like Zinn was a bit optimistic about the results of slave rebellion. I consider Nat Turner & John Brown real American heroes, but a slave revolt could have gone several strange ways. Utter collapse of the any freedom movement or subversion by northern whites were just two of the more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021/45 "2009-09-08T15:12:46Z")
Never underestimate the willpower and energy of slaves who have just successfully liberated themselves. Not to say that it couldn’t have gone any number of strange ways, but Blacks radicalized by their experiences in fighting for self-emancipation coupled with the radical political tendencies already existing among whites (Marxists fought for the Union in the Civil War) could have made for a powerful movement from below. Note also that Zinn said “_might_ get out of hand”, not ‘would’. It’s clear he isn’t arguing that a radical challenge to capitalism in the US was the only possible outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021/46 "2009-09-08T15:17:23Z")
The book **1491** , by Charles Mann (which I’m presently reading) is an interesting (if messy) take on the Indian populations of North, Central and South America and their often misunderstood or ignored contributions to the way the country (and continents) developed. Yeah, it’s a broad canvass, but very interesting. I’m not sure a one-volume comprehensive history of the USA exists. Such a tome will necessarily omit way more than it will include, and much of history is in the details. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021/47 "2009-09-08T17:00:13Z")
Jefferson was, at one point, a strong proponent of freeing the slaves… until a slave rebellion changed his mind. (I can cite this when I get home. It’s in the Great Upheaval.) I doubt severely that a slave rebellion would have had… any result that wouldn’t have wound up in a horribly tragic fashion with most of the black citizens of America dead. (I give you Haiti and Toussaint Louverture as a second example. God, what a horror that was. It could have gone so well, too. ) I will second Morrison’s Growth of the American Republic. And the Penguin History. Random trivia: It is true that Lincoln was no fan of freeing the slaves. You’ve heard the ‘If I could keep the country whole by freeing them or not freeing them’ quote? That was only true until he met Frederick Douglass, whereupon he became convinced that a black man could be the equal of any white man, changing his mind entirely. After that, emancipation was not just a political tool, but a personal conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021/48 "2009-09-08T18:16:26Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Random trivia: It is true that Lincoln was no fan of freeing the slaves. You’ve heard the ‘If I could keep the country whole by freeing them or not freeing them’ quote? > That was only true until he met Frederick Douglass, whereupon he became convinced that a black man could be the equal of any white man, changing his mind entirely. > After that, emancipation was not just a political tool, but a personal conviction. The problem here is that Frederick Douglass didn’t meet Lincoln until the [summer of 1863](http://www.mrlincolnandfreedom.org/inside.asp?ID=69&subjectID=4), apparently on [10 Aug](http://shortcovers.com/mixes/Giants-The-Parallel-Lives-Of/mix-AvwmgaBjF0Of5TgrRlEcQQ/page1.html), almost a year after the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation (Sep 1862) and several months after the full Proclamation went into effect (1 Jan 1863). Whether it became a personal conviction or not after Lincoln met with Douglass is irrelevant, because the political tools (for what they were worth outside of propaganda value) had already been put into use. In fact the “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave” quote is from August of 1862, right before the preliminary Proclamation; in that same letter he differentiates between his view of his official duty as President (saving the Union) and his personal wish (“that all men, everywhere, could be free”). According to James McPherson in his collection of essays “Abraham Lincoln and the Second American Revolution”, Lincoln had already set his sights on emancipation by the time he wrote this letter, but that in no way automatically means that the decision was borne purely by personal conviction. Had Lincoln not been convinced _by events_ that the abolition of slavery was by then an absolutely necessary measure, there would have been no Emancipation Proclamation. Ah, thread hijacks… so much fun! ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021/49 "2009-09-08T19:50:41Z")
Entirely correct, Olentzero. At that point, he was doing it because it was the expedient thing, and possibly the morally correct thing, but not because he believed, personally, in equality. This is why it’s trivia. The fact that he did come to believe, summer-fall 1863, is interesting, and might shed some light on his later actions. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021/50 "2009-09-08T20:01:07Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > The fact that he did come to believe, summer-fall 1863, is interesting, and might shed some light on his later actions. What did he “come to believe” in 1863, if he stated that his personal conviction was “all men, everywhere, should be free” a year earlier? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021/51 "2009-09-08T23:43:55Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Gonna respond to this whether you care to read it or not. > > No, this is not what Zinn is arguing. The copy I have on hand is the 1995 updated edition, which stops in the middle of the Clinton presidency, but I do not think the section I am about to quote will have been radically altered in later editions. On page 167, at the beginning of Chapter 9, Zinn writes:I can see how you might be confused by the statement you read on Wikipedia, since it is very unclear on what it means by rebellions (Who’s rebelling? The Confederates? The slaves?) and that it seems to twist Zinn’s point around to imply an argument about the Civil War ending rebellions rather than Zinn’s actual argument about the potential for slave rebellions to end slavery. In any case, Zinn is not saying that the Civil War was fought to preserve capitalism, but that the vehicle of the war could be used to achieve the goal of emancipation and simultaneously forestall further challenges to the social order. Nat Turner’s rebellion ended up slaughtering any whites they saw so independent slave revolts might have just made everyone opposed to abolitionism. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021/52 "2009-09-09T00:30:54Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > What did he “come to believe” in 1863, if he stated that his personal conviction was “all men, everywhere, should be free” a year earlier? That a black man could be the equal of a white man. Not just some human, but lesser being. Hey, it was the 1860s, a friendship between a black man and the President is a hell of a thing. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021/53 "2009-09-09T00:37:05Z")
Jefferson: In his Notes on the State of Virginia, he denounced slavery, on both moral and economic terms. But then, he refused to have his name attached to it, and he refused to let it have wide circulation. Also, he kept slaves. He drafted a law for gradual emancipation, but never introduced it. He wrote a tirade against slavery in the Declaration… then didn’t complain when it was removed. Of special interest is the revolt I was talking about. Gabriel’s Rebellion. [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part3/3h492.html](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part3/3h492.html) Worth looking his perspective up on this. It’s not hard to see the man as someone who was doing something he knew was wrong, but couldn’t stop. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021/54 "2009-09-09T04:58:16Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > **Moderator Note** > > **RikWriter** , **magellan01** , keep your criticisms of Zinn on the content of what Zinn has to say, and refrain from attacking the intelligence or integrity of people who suggest reading Zinn. You’re edging towards the line, but don’t actually cross it. > > Agree with this. **Guin** , if you don’t want to consider **Olentzero** ’s opinion, you don’t have to, but don’t try to prevent him from offering it. > > Everyone, remember that you’re in Cafe Society, not the Pit, and keep your language civil and refrain from personal insults. > > twickster, Cafe Society moderator Sorry, perhaps I shouldn’t have put it like that. But as stated, he was biased in favor of Zinn, and I wanted to hear why people had a PROBLEM with it. I wasn’t saying he couldn’t comment on it – just that I wanted someone ELSE’S perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021/55 "2009-09-09T05:34:28Z")
See, now that I can understand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-history-of-the-usa/509021.md?page=2)