# Best movies/books/shows for moral ambiguity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 14, 2014, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606 "2014-11-14T07:16:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BurnMeUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@BurnMeUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BurnMeUp)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/41 "2014-11-18T19:56:01Z")
TV: The FX show Fargo - quite well done! Books: The Death of Bunny Munroe - Nick Cave - a philanderer is left to raise his son and while he tries hard he is really terrible at it. Pretty much most things by John Irving but I recommend The World According to Garp ot Until I Find You ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/42 "2014-11-20T21:56:05Z")
Andrew Vachss’s whole Burke series. ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/43 "2014-11-20T22:56:22Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > I think _The Talented Mr. Ripley_ might qualify for this. Definitely. If you haven’t had it too thoroughly spoiled already, _Gone Girl_ might have you wondering if they don’t deserve each other. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/44 "2014-11-21T19:58:14Z")
## An ongoing trope in Japanese manga/anime is that an honorable samurai can serve a corrupt and unworthy lord. More generally, the villains are usually given less convenient motivations than revenge and the like, even in shows for kids. “Usually”, referring to works that make their way to the West at least. Obligatory TV tropes link: Sliding Scale of Anti-Villains: [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlidingScaleOfAntiVillains](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlidingScaleOfAntiVillains) ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2014, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/45 "2014-11-22T04:45:11Z")
One aspect of the Millennium Trilogy by Stieg Larsson (The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, The Girl Who Played With Fire and The Girl Who Kicked The Hornets’ Nest), in the character of Lisbeth Salander. She’s a computer whiz who can hack into almost anything, and what she can’t, her shadowy hacker friends can. But, she and her friends mostly use their skills for good. When they hack into computers, it’s to gather information. From the good guys, to keep up with what’s going on. From the bad guys, to get evidence. You root for her to GO GET ‘EM! when targeting bad guys, while feeling disturbed that she’s reading through her friends’ e-mails. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/46 "2014-11-22T05:03:58Z")
Green Eyes, can’t remember the author. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2014, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/47 "2014-11-22T05:08:16Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Well, I had never watched an episode of _The Shield_ before, but thanks to you guys, I watched the pilot today. Holy shit that was awesome! > > …I had no idea Vic was THAT crooked. Tip of the iceberg is all I’m going to say. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2014, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/48 "2014-11-22T07:06:27Z")
So I’ve recently discovered a new favorite sci-fi author in Lois McMaster Bujold, and I’m thinking something like _Shards of Honor_ might fit the bill. The male protagonist, Aral Vorkosigan, is hardly a saint, yet somehow very likeable as he attempts to navigate the politics of his home planet. And it’s not just Vorkosigan - he’s surrounded by characters that are morally ambiguous. I kind of love it. So far I’ve just read the one book, but there’s a whole series, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/49 "2014-11-22T14:32:40Z")
At the risk of confusing some, I’d consider _Million Dollar Baby_ one of the least morally ambiguous movies around - at least, when confined to the genre of “character must make hard choice” films. It’s a great movie on many levels, but the makers go to extreme lengths to nail shut every possible alternative, leaving two and only two choices. There’s no nuance, no subtlety, no third option: it’s “jump off the 5,000-foot cliff or be eaten by this slavering grue.” That kind of undercut the story, and even more the acting, for me. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/50 "2014-11-22T17:52:37Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > So far I’ve just read the one book, but there’s a whole series, apparently. You’re in for a treat… ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2014, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/51 "2014-11-22T18:00:42Z")
_Apocalypse Now_ ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/52 "2014-11-22T18:14:27Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > You’re in for a treat… I was hoping someone might say that! Just started _Barrayar_. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/53 "2014-11-22T19:06:08Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I was hoping someone might say that! Just started _Barrayar_. Yay. Then onto the Young Miles stuff. I only read them recently, and to be honest I’ve not read such a likeable series in years. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/54 "2014-11-22T22:50:08Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Yay. Then onto the Young Miles stuff. I only read them recently, and to be honest I’ve not read such a likeable series in years. Would you say the series as a whole would be a good candidate for the OP’s requested moral ambiguity? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/55 "2014-11-23T02:29:51Z")
I’ve been rereading some of Dashiell Hammett’s work,\* The Dain Curse\* and some of the Continental Op stories and I would nominate his entire body of work. Reread “The Golden Horseshoe” yesterday and today and the Op more or less frames a villain for a murder in Spokane because he can’t prove in court that he masterminded three murders in San Francisco. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/56 "2014-11-23T02:34:50Z")
Sitnam: _Green Eyes_ is by Lucius Shepherd if it’s the one about zombies. If it’s not, I still recommend Shepherd’s book. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/57 "2014-11-23T02:52:05Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > At the risk of confusing some, I’d consider _Million Dollar Baby_ one of the least morally ambiguous movies around - at least, when confined to the genre of “character must make hard choice” films. > > It’s a great movie on many levels, but the makers go to extreme lengths to nail shut every possible alternative, leaving two and only two choices. There’s no nuance, no subtlety, no third option: it’s “jump off the 5,000-foot cliff or be eaten by this slavering grue.” That kind of undercut the story, and even more the acting, for me. Yes and no. I reviewed this for my work newsletter and apparently encouraged a lot of people, who hated the movie, to go and see it. I explained to them that I thought that the ending was really uplifting. Frankie is told by Father Horvack \*“If you do this thing, you’ll be lost. Somewhere so deep you’ll never find yourself again.” \* He knows this and out of his love for her he does it anyway. In the last shot he is still on the other side of the counter. He doesn’t own the place. Father Horvack was right. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/58 "2014-11-23T06:40:30Z")
> [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](#): > > Sitnam: _Green Eyes_ is by Lucius Shepherd if it’s the one about zombies. If it’s not, I still recommend Shepherd’s book. Yup, that’s the one. ---
**Author:** ![TPWombat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbce88/32.png) [@TPWombat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TPWombat)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2014, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606/59 "2014-11-23T10:09:09Z")
TV series [**Continuum**](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1954347/?ref_=nv_sr_2) seemed a pretty lightweight SF drama series when it started - future cop comes back to the present day to fight time terrorists. The terrorists are seriously unpleasant and ruthless, but then you come to realise from the flash forwards that they have every reason to be. 3 series in now and IMO still asking questions and still interesting. I highly recommend the film [\*\*The Tall Man \*\*](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1658837/?ref_=nv_sr_1), both for the early “WTF is going on here?” twist, and the moral question the film asks. DON’T READ SPOILERS! NB In fairness there are some logistical problems which may spoil it for you- personally I can overlook them because I enjoyed the film so much otherwise but YMMV. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-movies-books-shows-for-moral-ambiguity/704606.md?page=2)