# Best No True Scotsman **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 19, 2014, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919 "2014-09-19T11:11:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Galanthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Galanthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galanthus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/1 "2014-09-19T11:11:02Z")
Today I heard the best example of the “No True Scottsman” fallacy that I have ever heard. Listening to a dejected Yes voter in Dundee being interviewed on the radio he said … “No True Scottsman would vote No” Awesome. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/2 "2014-09-19T11:20:16Z")
No true Scotsman would spell ‘Scottsman’ ! ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/3 "2014-09-19T12:14:24Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > No true Scotsman would spell ‘Scottsman’ ! 😃 Actually “Scot” would be more correct. And inclusive. Well, the guy in Dundee was wrong, apparently. The BBC has [several maps](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29255449) showing how the voting went by region and demographics. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/4 "2014-09-19T12:42:06Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > 😃 > Actually “Scot” would be more correct. And inclusive. > > Well, the guy in Dundee was wrong, apparently. > The BBC has [several maps](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29255449) showing how the voting went by region and demographics. The ones who voted No weren’t \*True \*Scotsmen. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/5 "2014-09-19T14:07:15Z")
What is interesting about that is that during the campaign, the locals repeatedly said that they differed from Quebec referendums in that it was not about identity politics there, but that quote means that it was–for some. I would like to point out that the first Quebec referendum was 60% no, but the second was something like 50.1% no. Of course that was after the ballot counters managed to invalidate 60,000 ballots mostly in areas that were heavily English speaking. One such precinct reported 203 votes of which 102 were invalidated. The government fought for 15 years to get the right to destroy without letting them being seen the rejected ballots. They finally won and did destroy them. Very different from Scotland where only a couple thousand ballots were thrown out. ---
**Author:** ![manila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@manila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manila)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/6 "2014-09-19T14:08:20Z")
Its really weird as an expat Brit since 1997 and never set foot back in the UK since 2001, am extremeley happy that the Union has been preserved. I can understand the bitter frutrations of the Scots having consistently voted against Tory policies and MPs, nevertheless ending up having Tory governments thrust upon them. I can also understand the frustrated impotence they must have felt at having voted solidly against Thatcher that they were then the only section of the country exposed to her Poll tax experiment. I could go on and on. But I am so happy and grateful that you haven’t voted to leave the Union. Am also grateful that they have shook up TBTB in Westminster so much so that the Devo Max that you have gained will doubtless start a chain reaction that will give more decentralised power to the Welsh and the Northern Irish as well as the English. We are unique in our heritage but we are better together and greater than the sum of our individual parts. Thank you Scots for remaining in the Union. Thank you for having faith that we can change the Union for the better rather than divorcing from us and discarding our many acheivements that make us British. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/7 "2014-09-19T15:43:23Z")
> [@manila](#): > > Thank you Scots for remaining in the Union. Thank you for having faith that we can change the Union for the better rather than divorcing from us and discarding our many acheivements that make us British. Oh for god’s sake, stop that weeping, Nigel! She wasn’t ever going to leave you. So much for that famous English stiff upper lip, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/8 "2014-09-19T17:26:23Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Oh for god’s sake, stop that weeping, Nigel! She wasn’t ever going to leave you. > So much for that famous English stiff upper lip, eh? It’s quite possible to wail helplessly without moving your upper lip noticeably. We never said anything about our _lower_ lips now, did we. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/9 "2014-09-19T17:54:04Z")
Did any of these Scotsmen show up at the polls in kilts and faces painted with woad? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/10 "2014-09-20T02:32:47Z")
> [@Galanthus](#): > > Today I heard the best example of the “No True Scottsman” fallacy that I have ever heard. > > Listening to a dejected Yes voter in Dundee being interviewed on the radio he said … > > “No True Scottsman would vote No” > > Awesome. Shrug. I’ve been on the receiving end of “Basque want independence so if you don’t want independence you’re not Basque” for going on 40 years, if the quoted line took this long to crop up in the campaign it took longer than I expected. My favorite still is “it doesn’t matter how long you and your ancestors have lived in Catalonia, if your first language isn’t Catalan you’re not Catalan”. And then there is the beautiful and sadly international “I don’t care how long you and your ancestors have lived here, you just ought’a go back to wherever you came from”. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/11 "2014-09-20T03:03:14Z")
Speaking of Catalonia, check out the snazzy national garb modelled by this **[fellow](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/19/catalan-pro-independence-campaigners-persevere-referendum-law)**. It makes the dumb ( modern ) Scottish wedding outfit with kilts an’ a’ look restrained. As a theoretical carlist, I will respect the red beret, although I mislike all berets — and the earlier 17th century Scotch bonnets ( the _Blue Bonnets_ of Leven’s mob ) as well — but **red/yellow**? He looks like he’s been invited to an\* auto-de-fé\*… ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/12 "2014-09-20T19:52:41Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Speaking of Catalonia, check out the snazzy national garb modelled by this **[fellow](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/19/catalan-pro-independence-campaigners-persevere-referendum-law)**. It makes the dumb ( modern ) Scottish wedding outfit with kilts an’ a’ look restrained. > As a theoretical carlist, I will respect the red beret, although I mislike all berets — and the earlier 17th century Scotch bonnets ( the _Blue Bonnets_ of Leven’s mob ) as well — but **red/yellow**? He looks like he’s been invited to an\* auto-de-fé\*… Eh, he’s just wearing the Catalonian flag – the standard one on his shirt, and the “estelada” (the one associated with the Catalan independentist movement, which has a blue triangle with a white star at one end) as a cape. (Incidentally, I would say that Puerto Rico at some point will have _words_ with the Catalan independentists about using a flag that is basically the same…) His hat is not a beret – it is a “barretina”, a supposedly traditional Catalan headgear which looks, if anything, more like a Phrygian cap than anything else (or, if you want to be uncharitable, you could say that it looks like a Smurf hat). A guy trying to show off his passion for his homeland by wrapping himself in two different flags and wearing a “national” hat. Pity the final effect is rather clashing! (Also – the map in his sign does not just show Catalonia: it shows also Valencia and the Balearic Islands. I have the feeling that he has not asked to many average Valencians or Islanders about how they feel regarding Catalonia deciding that they should also be independent in union with it…) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/13 "2014-09-23T08:12:02Z")
Well, if “true” means independent… ---
**Author:** ![Cinnamon\_Imp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@Cinnamon\_Imp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Imp)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/14 "2014-09-23T15:00:29Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The ones who voted No weren’t \*True \*Scotsmen. Or Scotswomen. I hope they enjoy living in North Britainshire. Bitter together. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/15 "2014-09-23T15:10:01Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Shrug. I’ve been on the receiving end of “Basque want independence so if you don’t want independence you’re not Basque” for going on 40 years, if the quoted line took this long to crop up in the campaign it took longer than I expected. My favorite still is “it doesn’t matter how long you and your ancestors have lived in Catalonia, if your first language isn’t Catalan you’re not Catalan”. And then there is the beautiful and sadly international “I don’t care how long you and your ancestors have lived here, you just ought’a go back to wherever you came from”. The OP is a reference to the name of an informal logical fallacy, the "no true scotsman’. > **[No true Scotsman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)** > > No true Scotsman or appeal to purity is an informal fallacy in which one modifies a prior claim in response to a counterexample by asserting the counterexample is excluded by definition. Rather than admitting error or providing evidence to disprove the counterexample, the original claim is changed by using a non-substantive modifier such as "true", "pure", "genuine", "authentic", "real", or other similar terms. > Philosophy professor Bradley Dowden explains the fallacy as an "ad hoc rescue" of a r... > [@](#): > > The use of the term was advanced by British philosopher Antony Flew: > > Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the “Brighton [(England)] Sex Maniac Strikes Again”. Hamish is shocked and declares that “No Scotsman would do such a thing”. The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again; and, this time, finds an article about an Aberdeen [(Scotland)] man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, “No true Scotsman would do such a thing”. The humour here is that the quote in the OP is literally using the “no true Scotsmen” on … Scotsmen. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/16 "2014-09-23T15:31:13Z")
Apropos… I remember reading in some old paperback about Irish Independence that one old girl, in a public speech for the cause around 1916, declared authoritatively that Irishmen were wholly incapable of sexual assault, meaning rape mainly. Perhaps due to racial purity, or perhaps due to the benign influence of the Roman Catholic Church, which jealous of it’s reserved rights. I have no idea how true this may be. Also, in the same book, some of the brave boyos, to prove their capacity for seizing governance attacked and slashed a donkey, who carried government mail in Dublin. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/17 "2014-09-23T16:14:57Z")
No true Scotsman would use a “no true Scotsman” argument. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/18 "2014-09-23T16:19:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The OP is a reference to the name of an informal logical fallacy, the "no true scotsman’. No? Really? WOW! Now you tell me! ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-no-true-scotsman/698919/19 "2014-09-23T16:41:57Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > No? Really? WOW! Now you tell me! My mistake, then. I wrongly assumed from your post you were not familiar with the saying.