# Best Responses to New Atheists **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682 "2010-10-01T02:09:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/41 "2010-10-01T16:59:38Z")
The problem is people. So, back to the OP: When a New Atheist comes looking for a fight, you should probably not engage them. I am an old Atheist… or a passive-aggressive one at least. I don’t care to convince anyone. Hey, enjoy your god/God/Og/og/religion. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/42 "2010-10-01T17:00:20Z")
No, I wasn’t criticizing you. I’ve heard the whole “stalin/mao/whoever’s deathcount is all atheist murders” thing before and I think the whole idea is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/43 "2010-10-01T17:03:30Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I had the impression that the term “New Atheists” was a dismissive term first used by their detractors. ITR, do you have some evidence that they themselves were the ones who came up with it? From what I’ve seen, most of them don’t use it about themselves. I’ve on clue who came up with it, but if they aren’t supposed to use it themselves, it seems that Stenger [didn’t get the message](http://www.amazon.com/New-Atheism-Taking-Science-Reason/dp/1591027519/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1285952504&sr=1-2). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/44 "2010-10-01T17:14:29Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > …and until Harris and Dawkins started pumping out their hate tracts… You lose every shred of credibility when you say things like this. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/45 "2010-10-01T17:25:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@Gustav](#): > > > > Seriously though, _is_ there any actual difference between the New Atheists and the regular kind? > > Beyond that they can get audiences in greater numbers and influence than in decades past, none that I’m aware of. [Robert G. Ingersoll](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_G._Ingersoll) [Bertrand Russell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_russell) Maybe it’s just that we have four or five of them simultaneously. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/46 "2010-10-01T17:31:30Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What the hell are you talking about? Seriously? I’m talking about instances such as [The murder of tens of thousand of Russian clergy and other believers](http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/6071292) during the early years of the Soviet Union, the Nazi party’s [massacres of Jews and Christians](http://www.ushmm.org/research/library/faq/details.php?lang=en&topic=03), the [violent anti-religious policy](http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/rcl/12-3_246.pdf) pursued by the Chinese until recently, [The Red Terror in Spain](http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Red_Terror_(Spain)) when leftists massacred a large portion of the Spanish clergy and others associated with the Catholic Church, [the persecution of the Cahtolic Church in Portugal](http://www.loveoneanothermagazine.org/nr/catholic_church/portugal_freemasonry_fatima.html), [Castro’s violence against Christians and Jews](http://www2.fiu.edu/~fcf/juanclark.cuba/clark97.humrtscond.html) in Cuba, and a great many other instances in which secular forces have used mass violence against religious believers. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > He’s referring the abuses and murders under Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro and other communists whose regimes were technically atheist. Some of the horrendous murders of religious believers by atheists were committed by communists and some were not. A few were committed by anti-communists. > [@](#): > > What he can never seem to grasp, though, is that communism and religion are not opposites - they’re ideological competitors, and prone to the same abuses and double-thinking when they get a taste of power. The claim that **SenorBeef** made was: “‘New Atheism’ is just a group of people who don’t feel the need to shamefully hide their atheism and who don’t view religion as unquestionable.” Thus he implied that there’s something ‘new’ about atheists who don’t shamefully hide their atheism. In real life, atheists have not generally hidden their atheism, but have on many occasions mass-murdered or otherwise persecuted people who weren’t atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/47 "2010-10-01T17:48:37Z")
What a delusional crock of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/48 "2010-10-01T18:03:28Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In real life, atheists have not generally hidden their atheism… OMFGhod! When you type absolute crap like this, what the hell is going through your mind? You _cannot_ believe this, and yet you post it…why? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/49 "2010-10-01T18:08:43Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > If you’d prefer something a lot less thorough and intelligent, search for a series of threads I started in response to Dawkins and Harris a couple years back. To me, the most noticable characteristic of those two guys is how much of what they say is flat lies. Dawkins is fond of saying untrue things such as: You know what I recall of those threads is you repeatedly having your lunch handed to you. I mean big time. Over and over again, as reliably as a crash test dummy is destined to have a bad day. As to the matter of how atheists versus believers are treated in society, I have a perfect example from just two nights ago. I went for a haircut, and the woman cutting my hair asked if my children were going to go trick or treating. After I answered, she was quite comfortable in telling me her beliefs about how terrible the pagan nature of much of Halloween is, and her child has only been allowed to go trick or treating for the past three years and only ever dresses as a cowgirl or something appropriate like that. And how there are so many better activities that the kids can participate in through the church that it’s a shame that so many go trick or treating. I thought about responding by sharing my atheistic beliefs, but I didn’t because she would probably have had a very bad reaction to that and I didn’t want my hair all messed up. I have never, ever, ever run into anyone who has felt comfortable to casually bring up an atheistic belief spontaneously in conversation upon first meeting me, yet religious types have no problem whatsoever not only doing so, but calling others’ practices into question based on religious grounds. If New Atheism is as **SenorBeef** describes it, I am entirely, completely all for it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/50 "2010-10-01T18:21:29Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I presume he or she means this: > [New Atheism - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atheism) > > > [@](#): > > > > New Atheism refers to a 21st century movement in atheism. The term, which first appeared in the November 2006 edition of Wired magazine,[1] is applied, sometimes pejoratively, to a series of six best-selling books by five authors that appeared in the period 2004–2008.[2] These authors are Sam Harris, Daniel C. Dennett, Richard Dawkins, Victor J. Stenger and Christopher Hitchens. But, what is their answer to [The Great Question?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_God_Go_XII) ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/51 "2010-10-01T18:22:08Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > > [@SenorBeef](#): > > > > What the hell are you talking about? Seriously? > > I’m talking about instances such as [The murder of tens of thousand of Russian clergy and other believers](http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/6071292) during the early years of the Soviet Union, the Nazi party’s [massacres of Jews and Christians](http://www.ushmm.org/research/library/faq/details.php?lang=en&topic=03), the [violent anti-religious policy](http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/rcl/12-3_246.pdf) pursued by the Chinese until recently, [The Red Terror in Spain](http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Red_Terror_(Spain)) when leftists massacred a large portion of the Spanish clergy and others associated with the Catholic Church, [the persecution of the Cahtolic Church in Portugal](http://www.loveoneanothermagazine.org/nr/catholic_church/portugal_freemasonry_fatima.html), [Castro’s violence against Christians and Jews](http://www2.fiu.edu/~fcf/juanclark.cuba/clark97.humrtscond.html) in Cuba, and a great many other instances in which secular forces have used mass violence against religious believers. I’m not wanting to get into the argument over links between the Nazi party and Christianity. That’s an irrelevant sidetrack. What is absolutely certain is that the membership of the Nazis and their allies was overwhelmingly Christian. The people who packed Jews into cattle cars were practicing Christians. The people who dropped the Zyklon B into the fake shower heads were overwhelmingly practicing Christians. Atheists have killed believers, and believers have killed atheists. You talk of the attacks on the Spanish clergy by leftists, but ignore the massacres of leftists by the fascists and their Spanish Catholic Church backers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/52 "2010-10-01T18:24:03Z")
> [@villa](#): > > What is absolutely certain is that the membership of the Nazis and their allies was overwhelmingly Christian. As was that of most of their enemies . . . even the Soviet armies had Christians in them, though percentage would be difficult to determine. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/53 "2010-10-01T18:29:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > As was that of most of their enemies . . . even the Soviet armies had Christians in them, though percentage would be difficult to determine. Indeed. I just get tired of the whole “was the Nazi Party pro-or-anti-Christian” argument, as if it means anything. The Nazis themselves were Christians. I’ve always wondered what the religious make up of the Red Army was - obviously it would vary based on where the troops were from. I just finished reading Ivan’s War, and it certainly seems there were a lot of atheists, but just as atheists in Christian dominated countries will often be quiet and be presumed to be believers, so I am sure that believers in an overtly atheist country won’t be shouting their beliefs to the rooftops. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/54 "2010-10-01T18:56:01Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Some of the horrendous murders of religious believers by atheists were committed by communists and some were not. A few were committed by anti-communists. Doesn’t really matter. In addition to “communism” and “religion” as competing ideologies that can be taken to murderous extremes, one can throw in “racial purity” or really anything with nebulous goals that promise some utopian result. Heck, I can imagine mass murder being blindly and fanatically performed in the name of “the profit motive”. Your major mistake is pretending that religion is somehow apart from the other ideologies, that it’s special. It isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/55 "2010-10-01T19:06:45Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > > [@SenorBeef](#): > > > > What the hell are you talking about? Seriously? > > I’m talking about instances such as [The murder of tens of thousand of Russian clergy and other believers](http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/6071292) during the early years of the Soviet Union, God give me strength. :rolleyes: The Orthodox church was one of the first to speak out AGAINST the Bolshevik revolution, and many of the clergy actively supported the White faction. The church was a strong opponent of the Soviet Union, and thus the Soviets saw it as a threat. It had nothing to do with religion or atheism – at least on the part of the Soviets. When come back, take a history class. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/56 "2010-10-01T19:45:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > > > In real life, atheists have not generally hidden their atheism… > > OMFGhod! When you type absolute crap like this, what the hell is going through your mind? You _cannot_ believe this, and yet you post it…why? Do you think that something I’ve posted in untrue? If so, tell me whhich of my statements, exactly, you believe to be untrue and why, and then I’ll respond. Until you do that, there’s no much I can say. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/57 "2010-10-01T19:53:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Doesn’t really matter. In addition to “communism” and “religion” as competing ideologies that can be taken to murderous extremes, one can throw in “racial purity” or really anything with nebulous goals that promise some utopian result. Heck, I can imagine mass murder being blindly and fanatically performed in the name of “the profit motive”. Your major mistake is pretending that religion is somehow apart from the other ideologies, that it’s special. It isn’t. When did I ever say that religion is apart from other ideologies in this respect? I don’t recall saying that. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > God give me strength. > > The Orthodox church was one of the first to speak out AGAINST the Bolshevik revolution, and many of the clergy actively supported the White faction. The church was a strong opponent of the Soviet Union, and thus the Soviets saw it as a threat. It had nothing to do with religion or atheism – at least on the part of the Soviets. And that has what to do with this thread? The question we’re looking at here, is whether atheists did, in fact, generally refrain from being confrontational and keep their atheism hidden prior to about 2004–that’s what Stenger et. al. seem to be implying. The fact that atheists murdered a great many Christians in the Soviet Union and other places proves that such a claim is false. The exact reason for the massacres of the clergy is not relevant to what’s being debated in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/58 "2010-10-01T19:56:42Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The question we’re looking at here, is whether atheists did, in fact, generally refrain from being confrontational and keep their atheism hidden prior to about 2004–that’s what Stenger et. al. seem to be implying. The fact that atheists murdered a great many Christians in the Soviet Union and other places proves that such a claim is false. The exact reason for the massacres of the clergy is not relevant to what’s being debated in this thread. So you’re saying we _should_ distrust men with giant moustaches. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/59 "2010-10-01T19:57:13Z")
> [@Bpelta](#): > > I’m looking to read responses to the New Atheists, whether they be articles or books. > > Two questions: > > 1. What are the most popular responses? > > 2. In your opinion, what are some of the best responses? I don’t know about popular responses - but Alvin Plantinga (sp?) had an interesting rebuttal to Dawkins. I’m not sure I fully agree with it, but it keeps the conversation going. I’d say Luke’s [blog](http://commonsenseatheism.com/) has some very insightful criticisms of atheists - of particular note are his blogs on why atheists lose debates. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682/60 "2010-10-01T19:58:13Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > Beyond that they can get audiences in greater numbers and influence than in decades past, none that I’m aware of. > > [Robert G. Ingersoll](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_G._Ingersoll) > [Bertrand Russell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_russell) > > Maybe it’s just that we have four or five of them simultaneously. In previous generations they had Francis Galton, Robert Blatchford, H. L. Mencken, H. G. Wells, Sigmund Freud and his followers, and these two guys named Marx and Engels, and doubtlessly a great many others who have been forgotten. The idea that there were no or very few outspoken atheists until the arrival of the “new atheists” is flatly false. It arises from the way that certain atheists have gotten their identity tied up with pretending to be a victim of big, bad religious persecutors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-responses-to-new-atheists/555682.md?page=4)