# Best speech ever (Iraq reality) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 23, 2007, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873 "2007-07-23T18:36:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/101 "2007-07-23T22:53:10Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] In context:Is **DevNull** crediting the Clinton Administration with taking effective and prudent steps to enable the overthrow of Saddam Hussein by his own people (by strengthening the Administration’s engagement with the full range of 1998-era Iraqi opposition forces)? [/quote] – We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently. – We are still doing that. How do you come up with “enable the overthrow of SH by his own people?” > [@](#): > > 'Cause it looks like he called that sentence in Clinton’s speech “TRUE”. And if it is true, it’s a damn shame Al Gore never entered the White House to continue that trajectory. It’s true the way Clinton said it. The way you said it was revisionist history. ---
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/102 "2007-07-23T22:57:03Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] What interesting thoughts. I have a short question for you; were I to compare Bush to, say, Hitler and the Nazis, what would your response be? Are they similar at all in terms of basic political idealogy? [/QUOTE] The socialist/nanny state thing is quite disturbing, yes, but at least the current administration has not asked me (or ordered me) to give my mind to the collective. That eases my concerns greatly. The minute the Bush administration wishes for me to shut up because I am a “total idiot” or wishes me to “go back where I belong” then I will have concern for creeping totalitarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/103 "2007-07-23T23:02:00Z")
Ah, thank you. I did wonder if the moonbat/Bush is a liberal/Nazis were socialist trinity could be completed. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/104 "2007-07-23T23:04:35Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] If the Democrats are left and most members of the GOP are “effectively doing the same thing” then I submit that the GOP has taken a huge slide to the left. [/quote] Then you are simply displaying more ignorance and intellectual immaturity. > [@](#): > > Absense of proof is not the same as proof of absence. In this case, yes it is. The absence of WMD in Iraq is proof that there were no WMD in Iraq. > [@](#): > > The Congressional Authorization for the Use of Military Force in Iraq never stated anything about WMDs. Yes it did. [Here is the text of the Resolution](http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=107_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ243.107). This is an excerpt from right at the top: > [@](#): > > Whereas after the liberation of Kuwait in 1991, Iraq entered into a > United Nations sponsored cease-fire agreement pursuant to which Iraq > unequivocally agreed, among other things, to eliminate its nuclear, > biological, and chemical weapons programs and the means to deliver > and develop them, and to end its support for international > terrorism; > > Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States > intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that > Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale > biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear > weapons development program that was much closer to producing a > nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated; > > Whereas Iraq, in direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire, > attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify > and destroy Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and > development capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal > of inspectors from Iraq on October 31, 1998; > > Whereas in Public Law 105-235 (August 14, 1998), Congress concluded that > Iraq’s continuing weapons of mass destruction programs threatened > vital United States interests and international peace and security, > declared Iraq to be in `material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations'' and urged the President `to take > appropriate action, in accordance with the Constitution and relevant > laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its > international obligations’'; > > Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of > the United States and international peace and security in the > Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach > of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing > to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons > capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and > supporting and harboring terrorist organizations Have you ever actually READ the Resolution? Aren’t you embrassed now that you just got your pwned? > [@](#): > > Straw man. You really shouldn’t try to use debate terms when you don’t know what they mean. You just make yourself look more stupid. You intimated that Bush did not lie about WMD, despite the mountain of evidence (including but not exclusive to the fact that _there were no WMD in Iraq_ depite Bush’s repeated assurances that h knew for a fact they were there) that he did exactly that. Whether he should be impeached for that is debatable, but asking you to show us where the WMD are is not a strawman because whether or not Bush lied about them was the suggested reason for impeachment. the Iraq Resolution is a _non sequitur_ to that discussion. > [@](#): > > So the Democratic controlled Congress with it’s approval ratings at 14% or so is… I dunno… the Democrats getting their bread buttered? At 14%, I am pretty sure that no one has told this session what getting one’s bread buttered means. They seem to have lost everyone but less than half of their base. The low approval ratings for the Dems is a result of their misreading the political climate and being too gutless to stop the war they were elected to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/105 "2007-07-23T23:05:54Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] The minute the Bush administration wishes for me to shut up because I am a “total idiot” or wishes me to “go back where I belong” then I will have concern for creeping totalitarianism. [/QUOTE] So prison camps without trials and wiretapping, those are no big deal, but people calling you an idiot for being an idiot, well, that’s fascism. “Fascist” doesn’t mean “big meanie,” you know. It’s a term describing a system of government that… ah, nevermind. Alas, we could have learned much from you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/106 "2007-07-23T23:06:12Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] The socialist/nanny state thing is quite disturbing, yes, but at least the current administration has not asked me (or ordered me) to give my mind to the collective. That eases my concerns greatly. [/quote] Noty only have they asked for it, but you appear to have handed it over rather eagerly (what little there ever was of it). ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/107 "2007-07-23T23:11:48Z")
Miss Ratched, I’d like my cigarettes, please. ---
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/108 "2007-07-23T23:38:59Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The absence of WMD in Iraq is proof that there were no WMD in Iraq. [/quote] It is impossible they were secreted out or buried? [quote] Yes it did. – Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated; – Had? They “had” WMDs? That is mention of having “HAVING” WMDs? I’ll take points for sloppiness but nowhere in the resolution did it mention WMDs existing in Iraq at that time. How can Bush have lied? that paragraph is 100% true. > [@](#): > > You really shouldn’t try to use debate terms when you don’t know what they mean. You just make yourself look more stupid. You intimated that Bush did not lie about WMD, despite the mountain of evidence (including but not exclusive to the fact that _there were no WMD in Iraq_ depite Bush’s repeated assurances that h knew for a fact they were there) that he did exactly that. Whether he should be impeached for that is debatable, but asking you to show us where the WMD are is not a strawman because whether or not Bush lied about them was the suggested reason for impeachment. the Iraq Resolution is a _non sequitur_ to that discussion. There is no evidence Bush lied about WMDs. No one has come up with any yet. Talking about past WMD use is not a lie. It is the truth. > [@](#): > > The low approval ratings for the Dems is a result of their misreading the political climate and being too gutless to stop the war they were elected to stop. They are misreading the climate that gives them a 14%? That is some pretty bad misreading. What do you think they think when they see President GW Bush enjoying over double the approval they have. Should they be more like Bush to catch up to him? Or should they continue to oppose Bush and keep the 14%. What a conundrum. ---
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/109 "2007-07-23T23:42:41Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Noty only have they asked for it, but you appear to have handed it over rather eagerly (what little there ever was of it). [/QUOTE] Don’t blame me, I voted for Kodos. First things first. We need to deal with the crisis in the middle-east that picked up in 1973. I’ll take a hit for voting in president GW Bush twice on that. I thought he would be the next Reagan, but he turned out to be the next LBJ. There was not one better choice at the time and I am forever stuck with the fact that president GW Bush has enacted some disgusting leftist policy. On the other hand, he has made individual rights a hot topic, which is an overall plus. I like when the Constitution gets some lovin’ by the population. I firmly believe I only could have done worse with another choice. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/110 "2007-07-23T23:44:36Z")
So, are you gonna reply to **George Kaplan** ’s post (#94), in which he basically outs you as a troll, or are you just killing time until you’re banned, dipshit? ---
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/111 "2007-07-23T23:53:44Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] So prison camps without trials [/quote] I want trials I want trials NOW. All of those people deserve trials. [/quote] > [@](#): > > and wiretapping, those are no big deal, It depends on the wiretapping. Are the calls going out of the country? Is there a warrant? Did a judge sign the warrant. Is the evidence admissible in a court of law. > [@](#): > > but people calling you an idiot for being an idiot, well, that’s fascism. No, people telling me to shutup and go back where I came from is fascist. > [@](#): > > “Fascist” doesn’t mean “big meanie,” you know. Who is being a big meanie? You people are very frustrated. I understand your pain and you need some vent time. That is fine. that is why I am here in the BBQ Pit. I don’t think you are all capable of being mean… although I would feel sorry for a person who had no intelligence if they ever wandered in here. It is very cruel to pick on people and call them names just because they are not as smart and fortunate as you. That would be just twisted. Tormenting someone for being less fortunate in the smarts department… yeah, that is downright evil. Of course it is a widespread human defense mechanism to call a smart person dumb.. especially if the caller of names is projecting their own personal insecurities on to their intended victim. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/112 "2007-07-23T23:55:59Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] – We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently. – We are still doing that. How do you come up with “enable the overthrow of SH by his own people?” [/QUOTE] Perhaps I misconstrued. It was my understanding that in 1998, the goal of the opposition forces in Iraq was the overthrow of the Saddam Hussein regime. It was also my understanding that the opposition forces in Iraq in 1998 mainly comprised Iraqis. Overthrow of the regime by Iraqis _would_ imply overthrow of Saddam by his own people, would it not? The Clinton Administration promise to strengthen its engagement with those opposition forces looks like it leads rather smoothly to a policy of enabling the overthrow of SH by his own people. Could you point to where I mixed up the players here? And as to “We are still doing that”, as you post above, are you actually claiming the current U.S. military and diplomatic policy is to work _with_ the Iraqi opposition? 'Cos these days, I think the Iraqi opposition consists primarily of insurgents, and various other folks who are opposing the Iraqi government. The Iraqi government that the Shrubya crowd put there. I don’t think Georgie-boy ever had a chance of successfully placing a stable pro-Western regime in Iraq by force, but I’m pretty sure Mr. Cheney wouldn’t let him “work with” the guys who are trying to bring down the joke of a regime that was installed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/113 "2007-07-23T23:57:04Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] It is impossible they were secreted out or buried? [/quote] Yes, it’s impossible. Not only would it have been ridiculously implausible to smuggle them out, we now know for a fact that Iraq had no wMD programs and was incapable of _producing_ any WMD. That makes the straw-clutching “they snuck them out” defense a non-starter. > [@](#): > > Had? They “had” WMDs? That is mention of having “HAVING” WMDs? > > I’ll take points for sloppiness but nowhere in the resolution did it mention WMDs existing in Iraq at that time. [Sigh] Yes it did. Read this paragraph again: > [@](#): > > Whereas Iraq both poses a **continuing** threat to the national security of > the United States and international peace and security in the > Persian Gulf region and **remains in material and unacceptable breach > of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing > to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons > capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability**, and > supporting and harboring terrorist organizations In case you don’t know (and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if you didn’t, biological, chemical and nuclear weapons ARE weapons of mass destruction. > [@](#): > > How can Bush have lied? that paragraph is 100% true. The paragraph I just quoted for a second time was 100% false. > [@](#): > > There is no evidence Bush lied about WMDs. No one has come up with any yet. You mean besides the fact that there _weren’t any WMD in Iraq_? If you don’t like that evidence, we can always talk about yellowcake. > [@](#): > > Talking about past WMD use is not a lie. It is the truth. Talking only about past possession of WMD would also have been insufficient as a pretext for an invasion. Unfortuantely for you, you are mistaken in your assertion that the Resolution did not claim that Iraq had a current WMD program. [quote] They are misreading the climate that gives them a 14%? That is some pretty bad misreading.[/qute] Yes it was. They were idiots. If they had done what they were elected to do, they would probably be hovering around the 30% that is normal for any Congress. > [@](#): > > What do you think they think when they see President GW Bush enjoying over double the approval they have. That it shows how incredibly weak GWB is and hopefully, that it shows how badly the public wants Congress to stand up to him. > [@](#): > > Should they be more like Bush to catch up to him? Or should they continue to oppose Bush and keep the 14%. > > What a conundrum. They are at 14% because they AREN’T opposing Bush, you fucking dunce. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/114 "2007-07-24T00:11:11Z")
Saddam a threat to his people- All leaders are. However Iraq was not a religious society. Women did not have to wear ha-bibs . Over 50 % of the college students were women. Half the professional workers were women. We turn out to be a much bigger threat to Iraq than Saddam ever was. Threat to area- No way. That is why other mid east countries called him a paper tiger and would not join the attack We knew damn well he was unable to defend himself. Threat to the world- No way. He is said to have tossed a few bucks to families of matyrs. I do not know if that is true. His army was hollow. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/115 "2007-07-24T00:16:12Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] Light does not stray. Light follows concrete laws of physics. Just because we are not masters of these laws yet is no reason to foist living qualities on light waves. [/QUOTE] All that time to think of a reply while you were responding to other posts, and this is the best you can come up with. K. Thx. Bi. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/116 "2007-07-24T00:21:12Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] … the reason my threads are so wildly popular … [/QUOTE] Bwahahaahahaahahaaha, oh I think I wet myself! Dude, reality check, your threads aren’t as popular as the weakest TMI-poop threads, come back when ya really got something. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/117 "2007-07-24T00:36:34Z")
Ooh, I thought of a new question for **DevNull**. You’ve said that Saddam bounced back to being a threat after the first Gulf War several times. Might I enquire as to how this threat was repeatedly reduced? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/118 "2007-07-24T00:45:47Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] No, people telling me to shutup and go back where I came from is fascist. [/QUOTE] Are fascists the new leftists? ---
**Author:** ![DevNull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c89c15/32.png) [@DevNull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DevNull)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/119 "2007-07-24T00:52:19Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] It was my understanding that in 1998, the goal of the opposition forces in Iraq was the overthrow of the Saddam Hussein regime. It was also my understanding that the opposition forces in Iraq in 1998 mainly comprised Iraqis. Overthrow of the regime by Iraqis _would_ imply overthrow of Saddam by his own people, would it not? The Clinton Administration promise to strengthen its engagement with those opposition forces looks like it leads rather smoothly to a policy of enabling the overthrow of SH by his own people. [/quote] Overthrow was the plan, yes. It was very important to overthrow Saddam. We can all agree.. except for the people who called Clinton’s speech in the OP a failure and the writings of a madman. > [@](#): > > Could you point to where I mixed up the players here? You did not mix up the players. – our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently.– It all boils down to that phrase. How far do you think the Clinton administration wanted to take it. He talked it all up as very important. Read that speech again, you will see how important overthrow was. Engagement and effectively are the key words. What does engagement entail. We are engaged with the Iraqi anti-Saddam forces right now. We are working effectively with them, more effective than the big nothing the 1998 plan had going. > [@](#): > > And as to “We are still doing that”, as you post above, are you actually claiming the current U.S. military and diplomatic policy is to work _with_ the Iraqi opposition? 'Cos these days, I think the Iraqi opposition consists primarily of insurgents, and various other folks who are opposing the Iraqi government. The Iraqi government that the Shrubya crowd put there. I don’t think Georgie-boy ever had a chance of successfully placing a stable pro-Western regime in Iraq by force, but I’m pretty sure Mr. Cheney wouldn’t let him “work with” the guys who are trying to bring down the joke of a regime that was installed. The Iraqi opposition was anti-Saddam, not anti-Iraq. They are still anti-Saddam and there is a new opposition in town. The new opposition includes foreign Muslim fighters and assorted locals who don’t like the US. There is a stable pro-Western govenment in Iraq right now. It is the foreigners and radical Muslims who are the problem right now. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2007, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873/120 "2007-07-24T00:55:01Z")
[QUOTE=DevNull] Overthrow was the plan, yes. It was very important to overthrow Saddam. We can all agree.. except for the people who called Clinton’s speech in the OP a failure and the writings of a madman. [/QUOTE] Generalisation, mon ami. No people suggested overthrowing Saddam was a bad thing. Quote up some people who said it wasn’t important, please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-speech-ever-iraq-reality/412873.md?page=7)