# Best stories in which the bad guys win **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 9, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591 "2010-06-09T23:21:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/61 "2010-06-10T17:09:05Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > **Northern Lights/The Golden Compass** , by Philip Pullman. (The book; not the horrible abortion of a movie.) How do you figure the bad guys win in that story? I think Lord Asriel is a jackass of a father, and the book’s greatest tragedy is that he didn’t insult Lyra in front of Iorek Byrnison so that the latter would calmly rip his head off, but in the universe of the story, his side is s clearly more in the right than Metatron and the Authority. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/62 "2010-06-10T17:21:54Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I don’t necessarily mean stories in which the protagonist fails in his or her aim. I mean stories in which there is a clear demarcation between good and evil in the story, and in which the evil side comes out ahead at the end. We needn’t restrict ourselves to epic tales of virtue versus vice; small-scale evil counts too, as long as the bad guys take the crown at the end. Janet Leigh played the only crook who got away with murder on COLUMBO, by dint of (a) not merely setting up multiple witnesses for her alibi before staging a locked-room murder to look like suicide, but also thanks to (b) someone else confessing to the crime upon realizing that our hero was about to get a clean arrest despite all her planning. There are a couple of twists near the end, but I think it still qualifies. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/63 "2010-06-10T17:27:19Z")
**Body Heat** ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/64 "2010-06-10T17:54:02Z")
1984 I think Andrew Vachss’s Burke qualifies Ed McBain’s Ice. One of the few where the 87th dectectives don’t get the bad guy. And McBain’s Deaf Man, who always gets away. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/65 "2010-06-10T17:57:26Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > **Body Heat** Thread winner. And I have a hard time seeing Melvin in **As Good As It Gets** as a bad guy. The man’s got a mental illness he’s trying to get through, and aspects of same make him an uberjerk. By the end of the film, he’s made a real effort to get well, and has taken responsibility for the welfare of others. He’s got a ways to go, but I’d call that redemption. If not, then there’s no hope for me. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/66 "2010-06-10T17:59:20Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Janet Leigh played the only crook who got away with murder on COLUMBO, by dint of (a) not merely setting up multiple witnesses for her alibi before staging a locked-room murder to look like suicide, but also thanks to (b) someone else confessing to the crime upon realizing that our hero was about to get a clean arrest despite all her planning. > > There are a couple of twists near the end, but I think it still qualifies. IIRC, Columbo joins the confessor in this bit of subterfuge because Leigh’s character is dying. Not sure that counts as a win. ---
**Author:** ![Minnie\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Minnie\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minnie_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/67 "2010-06-10T18:31:18Z")
I was actually going to posit _Pulp Fiction_, but I don’t think anyone really “wins” in that movie. What do you think? Is Butch the good guy and does he win? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/68 "2010-06-10T18:36:31Z")
> [@Minnie\_Luna](#): > > I was actually going to posit _Pulp Fiction_, but I don’t think anyone really “wins” in that movie. What do you think? Is Butch the good guy and does he win? I don’t think there’s a clear demarcation between good & evil in Pulp Fiction. Just bad guys and worse guys. ---
**Author:** ![bleach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bleach/32/3106_2.png) [@bleach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bleach)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/69 "2010-06-10T19:16:15Z")
In all of the **Chuck Palahniuk’s novels** that I’ve read, they all seem to end with the protagonist’s world irrevocably changed and the world darker. I don’t want to say too much more than that because of spoilers. And **Burger King commercials** that feature The King. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/70 "2010-06-10T19:25:58Z")
You know, I’d argue that Richard III qualifies. Sure, Richard is a monster - but what monarch of his day wasn’t? And if you aren’t going to have a particularly decent or moral monarch, the best you can hope for is competence - this, Richard had in spades. An England under (Shakespeare’s version of) Richard Gloucester would have been a force to respect and fear. Dude should have lived. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/71 "2010-06-10T19:36:30Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > How do you figure the bad guys win in that story? I think Lord Asriel is a jackass of a father, and the book’s greatest tragedy is that he didn’t insult Lyra in front of Iorek Byrnison so that the latter would calmly rip his head off, but in the universe of the story, his side is s clearly more in the right than Metatron and the Authority. He’s more than simply a jackass, at the end of the book he: Murders a child by seperating him from his soul to further his aims. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/72 "2010-06-10T19:41:37Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > He’s more than simply a jackass, at the end of the book he: > > Murders a child by seperating him from his soul > > to further his aims. I’m quite aware of that. But **MTCicero** referred to the entire trilogy, not simply _Northern Lights_; and while Asriel is certainly in need of a nice lead injection to the right temple, he’s not presented as being anywhere near as villainous as those he opposes. And Northern Lights is not the end of the story. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/73 "2010-06-10T20:04:28Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > How do you figure the bad guys win in that story? I think Lord Asriel is a jackass of a father, and the book’s greatest tragedy is that he didn’t insult Lyra in front of Iorek Byrnison so that the latter would calmly rip his head off, but in the universe of the story, his side is s clearly more in the right than Metatron and the Authority. Right. But based on that one book alone, it seems very much like the bad guys won. Plus, he pretty much flagrantly and uncaringly sacrifices the life of an innocent child. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/74 "2010-06-10T20:05:33Z")
> [@Covered\_In\_Bees](#): > > Does the story have to be fictional? If not, I nominate [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=213577). I would give a LOT of money to have the memory of that story wiped out of my head. Re: the OP - what about _The Italian Job?_ I didn’t see the original, just the remake, and while the gang is all charming and lovely and sexy and funny, they ARE criminals. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/75 "2010-06-10T20:06:14Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m quite aware of that. **But MTCicero referred to the entire trilogy** , not simply _Northern Lights_; and while Asriel is certainly in need of a nice lead injection to the right temple, he’s not presented as being anywhere near as villainous as those he opposes. And Northern Lights is not the end of the story. Where, exactly, did I refer to the entire trilogy again? I just named the one book, referring both to it’s UK and US titles. I clearly didn’t say “the entire **His Dark Materials** series”. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/76 "2010-06-10T20:31:22Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > Where, exactly, did I refer to the entire trilogy again? I just named the one book, referring both to it’s UK and US titles. I clearly didn’t say “the entire **His Dark Materials** series”. You’re right. I only skimmed over your post, and when I saw the bolded section with a slash, I took it that you had typed Northern Lights/Subtle Knife/Amber Spyglass. It was a matter of seeing what I expected to see. Still not sure I’d count it. If you include the bit with Lord Asriel at the end, **Northern Lights** is clearly not a complete story; it’s only the beginning. It’s not at all certain that Asriel will ultimately win. I mean, the fact that the Empire succeeds in killing Luke’s aunt & uncle in Star Wars hardly means they win the entire conflict in that movie. Of course, given that they exterminate all of Alderaan before the story’s over, they’re certainly ahead on points. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/77 "2010-06-10T20:33:17Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > Right. > > But based on that one book alone, it seems very much like the bad guys won. > > Plus, he pretty much flagrantly and uncaringly sacrifices the life of an innocent child. I think we’re meant to take Asriel’s action at the end of that book (and I’m including his callous treatment of Lyra in addition to what you mention in the spoiler box) as less the final stroke of his plan, and more the revelation of his true nature to Lyra. And, as mention in my previous post, NL is clearly not a complete story. It’s hard to say that Asriel won at the end of the story based on what he does in it, since the end is nowhere near. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/78 "2010-06-10T20:47:57Z")
To me it’s simple: Asriel was a bad guy, and at the end of the series, he won (sure he died, but he was a fanatic - he probably didn’t care wheter he lived or died anyway). But then, part of the reason I hate the books is that they never got me to dislike the “bad guys” more than the so-called protagonists. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/79 "2010-06-10T20:56:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > To me it’s simple: > > Asriel was a bad guy, and at the end of the series, he won (sure he died, but he was a fanatic - he probably didn’t care wheter he lived or died anyway). But then, part of the reason I hate the books is that they never got me to dislike the “bad guys” more than the so-called protagonists. I am abandoning spoilers for His Dark Materials at this point. Whom are you considering the protagonists? I agree that Asriel and Mrs. Coulter are extremely unlikable (in fact, one of the the books’ biggest failings, in my view, is that Mrs. Coulter, in particular, never gets called to task for her many sins), but they’re not the protagonists, any more than Iorek or Lee or the witches are the protagonists. The protagonists are Will & Lyra. I also disagree that Asriel is a fanatic. Asshole though he is, he is a pale shadow of the villainy of Metatron. And I don’t think he didn’t care whether he lived or died. He was WILLING to die if it came to it, but certainly he’d have preferred to live. And the war he was fighting was worth fighting. (Though that doesn’t excuse his murder of Roger :mad: or his vileness to his child. I have nothing good to say about Marisa Coulter. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/80 "2010-06-10T21:09:03Z")
It’s already been mentioned by I think 1984 is the epitome of this. Evil triumphs and always will triumph. There will be no revolution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591.md?page=5)