# Best stories in which the bad guys win **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 9, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591 "2010-06-09T23:21:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![silvermist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@silvermist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silvermist)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/81 "2010-06-10T21:59:31Z")
Fractured with Anthony Hopkins ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/82 "2010-06-11T02:43:48Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > It’s already been mentioned by I think 1984 is the epitome of this. Evil triumphs and always will triumph. There will be no revolution. Well, there might be. But not from within the Party, even the Outer Party - its control is too pervasive. If there is hope, it lies with the proles. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/83 "2010-06-11T02:51:48Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > You know, I’d argue that Richard III qualifies. Sure, Richard is a monster - but what monarch of his day wasn’t? And if you aren’t going to have a particularly decent or moral monarch, the best you can hope for is competence - this, Richard had in spades. > > An England under (Shakespeare’s version of) Richard Gloucester would have been a force to respect and fear. Dude should have lived. How does that make _Richard III_ a story where the bad guys win? Henry Tudor is no bad guy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/84 "2010-06-11T02:56:27Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > It’s already been mentioned by I think 1984 is the epitome of this. Evil triumphs and always will triumph. There will be no revolution. That calls to mind _Brave New World_ – the few feeble creative protests against the orderly society of the World State are put down firmly, the Savage hangs himself in despair – but, it doesn’t quite count. The World State is not unambiguously evil; unlike the Ingsoc regime of Oceania, it is not a sociopolitical system based on sadism and power-tripping, and nobody goes hungry or gets tortured and life is full of pleasures. It’s just, well, dull and sterile. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/85 "2010-06-11T03:10:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How does that make _Richard III_ a story where the bad guys win? Henry Tudor is no bad guy. Well, he’s less virtuous with regard to those virtue that matter - cunning and ruthlessness. Henry Tudor seizes power in a moment of opportunity - Richard Gloucester _made_ his opportunities, painstakingly, over a period of years. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/86 "2010-06-11T04:31:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Henry Tudor is no bad guy. Sure he was. Just a filthy usurper - Richard III had a far stronger claim to the throne than he. And if there is a better indication of relative balance of good and evil than the legalisms of Renaissance inheritance, I can’t imagine what it might be ;). ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/87 "2010-06-11T15:47:50Z")
The Bad News Bears. ---
**Author:** ![Daithi\_Lacha](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daithi_lacha/32/5430_2.png) [@Daithi\_Lacha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daithi_Lacha)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/88 "2010-06-11T17:51:20Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Well, he’s less virtuous with regard to those virtue that matter - cunning and ruthlessness. Henry Tudor seizes power in a moment of opportunity - Richard Gloucester _made_ his opportunities, painstakingly, over a period of years. There’s a very entertaining book called [The Sunne in Splendour](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sunne_in_Splendour) which is a novelized history of Richard III’s life. It posits that he was a good man and a decent leader, but had a fatal flaw in that he trusted the wrong people, and that once he had given his word, he was so stiff-necked as to never go back on it. He was, in essence, his own worst enemy. A very good read, and at 800+ pages, a long one. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/89 "2010-06-11T17:51:31Z")
Does Hannibal Lecter count as a bad guy who wins? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/90 "2010-06-11T17:55:37Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Does Hannibal Lecter count as a bad guy who wins? In _Hannibal_? Certainly. I haven’t read _Hannibal Rising_, its predecessor left me filled with rage. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/91 "2010-06-11T20:31:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That calls to mind _Brave New World_ … The World State is not unambiguously evil; unlike the Ingsoc regime of Oceania, it is not a sociopolitical system based on sadism and power-tripping, and nobody goes hungry or gets tortured and life is full of pleasures. It’s just, well, dull and sterile. Dull??? Have you ever played Centrifugal Bumble-Puppy?!?!? ---
**Author:** ![HeadNinja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b4bc9f/32.png) [@HeadNinja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeadNinja)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/92 "2010-06-11T20:37:50Z")
Match Point. What is odd is that it is a Woody Allen movie. You generally don’t expect his movies to: A) lack a nebbishy whiner B) have such a dark murder. An interesting noted about IMDB, you can change the url to see when something was added. The 1st record? > **[Fred Astaire | Actor, Additional Crew, Producer](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000001/)** > > Known for: The Towering Inferno, Funny Face, On the Beach Fred Astaire. Woody Allen is 95. ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/93 "2010-06-11T20:49:55Z")
_It’s A Wonderful Life_. ::shudder:: ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/94 "2010-06-11T21:35:47Z")
> [@Kizarvexius](#): > > _It’s A Wonderful Life_. > > ::shudder:: Are you calling George evil, or Clarence? ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/95 "2010-06-11T22:50:53Z")
Most of the Cthulu Mythos. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/96 "2010-06-11T22:58:34Z")
\*\*Unforgiven \*\*(the 1992 Clint Eastwood film). Of course, there were no ‘good guys’ at all in that movie; there were only the ‘bad guys’ and the ‘even worse guys’. But it was, in fact, the ‘bad guys’ that won. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/97 "2010-06-11T23:13:49Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Sure he was. Just a filthy usurper - Richard III had a far stronger claim to the throne than he. And if there is a better indication of relative balance of good and evil than the legalisms of Renaissance inheritance, I can’t imagine what it might be ;). Except that Shakespeare was writing in an England where Henry’s descendants ruled, so i rather suspect he wrote Richard as the bad guy - not to mention him killing the princes, which hadn’t been verified when he wrote. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/98 "2010-06-11T23:17:20Z")
The Godfather, I & II. The Corleones crush all rivals to their Familiy’s power through lies, deception, intimidation, assaults, blackmail, and murder. Michael does it all better than anyone else in the business. ETA: even animal cruelty (the horsehead?) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/99 "2010-06-11T23:28:28Z")
The Swordsman of Varnis - which should be, but wasn’t, the inspiration for the whip vs sword scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark. There is an Erik Frank Russell novel where the hero faces a firing squad at the end of the book - and doesn’t quite get rescued. No spoiler - it is pretty obscure and if I keep you from reading it I did you a favor. I’ll offer Dr. Strangelove. At the end of the movie, anyway, it appears that the idiots who got the world into that mess were going to both survive and have lots of women. The end of the novelization implies that they didn’t do so well, though. BTW, while the bad guy wins in the movie of “A Clockwork Orange,” it seems that in the English version the last chapter has Alex repenting. But not in the American version of the novel which I own, so I can’t confirm this. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591/100 "2010-06-12T21:09:21Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Not just implied, but threatened/prophesied by Sgt. Howie himself. And Summerisle shows a bit of worry at his words. I liked the little look of panic on the good Lord’s face when Howie makes the suggestion. I suppose The Big Lebowski wouldn’t really count. The Big Lebowski got away with his fraud, Donny died and all we say the Nihilists lose was an ear and a toe for their troubles and, of course, they finally killed the Dude’s fucking car. But after all that, the Dude still abides 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-stories-in-which-the-bad-guys-win/542591.md?page=6)