Best total-kill herbicide to clear off my back yard

Not if you use enough.

Somebody’s been reading Mother Earth News! :slight_smile:

NIH found Roundup to pose low toxicity risk to bees, the studies showing negative effects on fish and amphibians have been careful to specify that those effects are seen only at unrealistically high concentrations, and Snopes has been clear that the gluten hypothesis is speculation without any evidence. Just use it with reasonable care.

Would goats take the property down to bare earth? And kill the roots?

I understand that a lot of “natural” news is bullshit. I generally don’t read or cite Mother Earth News, for what it’s worth (they’re good for self-critiquing the left, but I wouldn’t trust it as a scientific or scholarly source). Nonetheless, this is not a fair assessment of Roundup dangers. It is controversial, undoubtedly, but the matter is far from settled and certainly not in favor of its safety. Basically, the spectrum of suspected effects range from “behaviorally harmful or cancer-causing in the long term to some species” to “not acutely toxic to mammals, but long-term impacts unclear; other species affected differently”. The older studies tended to measure acute toxicity instead of long-term impacts.

From a precautionary standpoint, glyphosate (along with its co-ingredients in various formulations) is already indiscriminately applied all over the world and is difficult to control, routinely finding its ways into waterways and rainfall; if its toxicity is not thoroughly understood (it’s not), alternatives deserve consideration.

There’s a difference between calling for a ban on glyphosate and saying “hey, hold on, there might be other options before you resort to that; there are a lot of questions about its safety, and the company actively bullies scientists investigating it”. Few methods are as convenient, cheap, or effective as Roundup, but they are also less ecologically threatening. In the real world it is basically impossible to “surgically” apply Roundup. Glyphosate and its decomposition products are everywhere.

The wheat thing, though, you may be right about… I didn’t realize the evidence for it was so extremely weak (almost entirely from one author who speculated on the connection prematurely). I apologize for that.

Some random cites from a few minutes of Googling… mostly recent…

General concerns & uncertainties:
Concerns over use of glyphosate-based herbicides and risks associated with exposures: a consensus statement - PMC
Glyphosate & Glyphosate Formulations

Astroturfing/science manipulation/lobbying concerns:
Monsanto Weed Killer Roundup Faces New Doubts on Safety in Unsealed Documents - The New York Times
IARC Scientists Defend Glyphosate Cancer Link; Surprised by Industry Assault | HuffPost Impact

Bee and impacts:
Effects of sublethal doses of glyphosate on honeybee navigation - PubMed
Effects of field-realistic doses of glyphosate on honeybee appetitive behaviour - PubMed
Ignoring Adjuvant Toxicity Falsifies the Safety Profile of Commercial Pesticides - PMC
http://www.bulletinofinsectology.org/pdfarticles/vol67-2014-125-130lu.pdf

Amphibian impacts:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10750-015-2404-0
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0147651314004801https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653518305277
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045653515303763https://peerj.com/articles/2641/
Calls for more nuanced research methodologies for studying glyphosate and amphibians:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fenvs.2018.00006/full
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00244-017-0427-4
Choice of experimental venue matters in ecotoxicology studies: Comparison of a laboratory-based and an outdoor mesocosm experiment - ScienceDirect

Loitering in watersheds, soils, bioaccumulation in plants:
Toxics | Free Full-Text | The Fate of Glyphosate and AMPA in a Freshwater Endorheic Basin: An Ecotoxicological Risk Assessment
Environmental fate of glyphosate and aminomethylphosphonic acid in surface waters and soil of agricultural basins - ScienceDirect
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ps.1512
Can an aquatic macrophyte bioaccumulate glyphosate? Development of a new method of glyphosate extraction in Ludwigia peploides and watershed scale validation - ScienceDirect
AminoMethylPhosphonic acid (AMPA) in natural waters: Its sources, behavior and environmental fate - ScienceDirect

Depends on the plants, but generally no. Roundup won’t prevent future growth either. A cover crop or plastic sheeting would do that.

I think sheep might do that, but that’s based on my vague recollection of fourth grade American history.

But it’s not just the roots, it’s the seeds. You want them to germinate and then die.

Bar-B-Qued or slow roasted on a spit? :rolleyes:

My experience with weed block fabric is that it works great the first year or two, then becomes useless. Right now I have weeds that have grown right through the fabric and when that happens it’s a lot harder to get rid of them.

Some weeds and grasses have very long roots that will take multiple treatments to kill. For example, Bermuda grass will keep sprouting up for months and you’ll have to keep spraying the shoots with herbicide until it’s finally dead for good. After the first treatment you can proceed with the backyard makeover, but be diligent about spot treating whatever pops through. If you don’t stay on top of the new growth, the weeds will re-establish themselves.

It depends on if you want to plant something there someday when the weeds are gone, want to never see plants there, or want plants to never grow there again as long as the earth shall last and the stars remain in the heavens.

One of the most effective and completely ecologically benign ways to kill weeds short term is called “solarizing”. essentially you just cover the area with thick black plastic and wait. I have done this on a very large scale (part of a wetlands restoration project involving acres of invasive non-natives). The heat of the sun and the darkness kills everything. Even in the shade. Of course when you lift the plastic, you will have to replant with something.

If you want to poison the earth, use Roundup. It’s a POISON. You are a bad person for poisoning the earth. Sorry. Deal with that in your own way, but don’t lie to yourself.

If you want an area which is usable by humans but contains no life, pave it.

I think the transparent/translucent plastic sheeting route is the way to go, especially this time of year.

Basically what you do is moisten the area, cover it well with the sheets, and let it sit in the sun for a while. You essentially cook the plants and their seeds, leaving them all dead, without using any potentially harmful chemicals. Plus it’s actually effective against soil pests and pathogens as well.

The intent is to remove the current vegetation, fabric the whole thing, and lay down white landscaping rock. The whole backyard is steeply inclined (25% grade) except for a small bench right next to the house, so it is highly impractical to mow, and the soil is absolute crap… and rock looks better than weeds.

That might be acceptable- I would assume any relatively rugged clear plastic sheeting should work. I’ll give that a try!

The plastic sheeting would work - for a couple of years. Dust, dirt, leaf litter, etc. will settle into the crevices between your rocks and eventually you will get more weeds. Another thing to consider is where rainwater will drain to, especially when you get a heavy downpour.

I too have heard that sheep are much more damaging to plants than goats. Goats eat plants down to a certain point which allows them to come back. Sheep on the other hand eat down into the roots and damage them enough to where many don’t come back. I’m not sure that you’ll find a place to rent sheep though. Maybe just keep a small herd in the back yard for a few years. :slight_smile:

Is it even legal to have sheep or goats running around your yard? People keep suggesting them as a viable option when it may not be. Can you rent a herd without getting a ticket from the police when your neighbors register a complaint? Presumably Wyoming is a bit more relaxed about this than many other places but that doesn’t mean that livestock are welcome in every subdivision.

Yes, and dont use herbicide, it is a ecological disaster.

Plastic sheeting will work, except yes, you will get weeds between the rocks someday. Get some sort of pampas grass and forestall the weeds by planting your own weeds.

There are some weeds where the only recommended treatment I’ve read of is “cover the area with an opaque tarp for a year, depriving it of sunlight and killing everything.” If you can wait until next year, it’ll work.

If the area is going to be covered in rock, perhaps laying down the barrier and covering it in rock is the way to go. But rather than an impervious tarp, I’ve heard of people laying down thick newspaper or burlap, which will block light and new growth but allow water to flow through.

Just agreeing with the idea that whatever you put down, you will get weeds growing back eventually, even if they’re just growing in accumulated dirt between the gravel.

If you’re laying down weed barrier and rock, I’d just mow the weeds to within an inch of their lives, and lay the stuff down.

For future weed control, my go-to-all-natural-kill-everything product is boiling water, though your space is maybe a little big for that solution.

Are the dogs going to tolerate fabric or plastic for what will probably be at least a month?
Sounds messy either way.