# Best works with the dumbest plot elements **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 2, 2017, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326 "2017-07-02T02:26:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/81 "2017-07-05T04:16:06Z")
It’s “Kodos,” and I’ve never heard anyone connected with the ST production team say anything about Reagan in that context. I think you’re reaching. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Mondegreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@Lord\_Mondegreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Mondegreen)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/82 "2017-07-05T10:13:09Z")
I will always defend Harry Potter. There is so much that could be criticised plotwise in the books and movies, I hardly know where to start. Despite this, they comprise a body of work which is absolutely incredible. At least as far as I, my wife and daughters are concerned. For many years Boxing Day (December 26 for those in the US) has been “Harry Potter Day.” We watch all the movies. It was easy when there were only three, but HP Day now extends over three days since there are eight movies of increasing length! Luckily the time between Christmas and New Year is typically time off for Australians. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Mondegreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@Lord\_Mondegreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Mondegreen)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/83 "2017-07-05T10:16:28Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > My vote is _ **Die Hard II** _, where the terrorists take over an airport at Christmastime. The movie and its failings have been thoroughly dissected elsewhere in this forum. > > Its sole virtue is that things happen so fast you don’t have time to dwell on how silly they are. (I sat through it three nights in a row when it first came out. Guilty pleasure!) I heartily agree. Even as a private pilot I thought, “Well, they could do [this] and [this] and [this]” to resolve the issue, but it is still a really entertaining movie, and I will watch it whenever it turns up. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/84 "2017-07-05T14:24:08Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > The fog explanation works for me. > > Or maybe the island just wasn’t in a place where ships ever had reason to be. Generally you’re sailing from someplace, to someplace else, and you take the shortest path to get there. Maybe Themyscira is in some out of the way place, and no one ever sailed through the invisibility screen because it wasn’t between where they were and where they wanted to go. > > Do we even know where in the world it is? Trevor flew there from Germany, so that suggests the North Sea somewhere. But the weather, buildings, plants, etc. look more Mediterranean. Trevor flew there from Turkey, which puts it in the eastern Mediterranean, probably the Aegean Sea. Now how did they sail from there all the way to London? ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/85 "2017-07-05T17:35:59Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > Trevor flew there from Turkey, which puts it in the eastern Mediterranean, probably the Aegean Sea. Now how did they sail from there all the way to London? Maybe they took the little-used Aegean-North Sea channel? ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/86 "2017-07-05T17:54:33Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > FWIW, Gen Henri Giraud was captured by the Germans in May 1940, escaped from a POW camp in Dresden, and made his way to Unoccupied France. Berlin wanted him back, but the Vichy government refused to extradite him. > > He eventually co-headed the Free French movement for a time in North Africa, alongside Charles deGaulle. At the time of filming the Nazis were the enemy, but not necessarily the incarnation of evil they turned out to be. The idea that they would still play by international rules/norms was likely not as absurd then as it seems in retrospect. During the time of _Casablanca_ (December 1941) the Germans were still eager to keep up the illusion of Vichy government sovereignty so they would not have to occupy the whole of France (at the time they only occupied the north of France, not the south of France and France’s territories). Captain Renault is very clear in welcoming Major Strasser to [“unoccupied France”](https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/988ddcf9-b43d-4c87-b951-739ae3a6a51c) - implying that the Germans did not have authority there (influence yes, authority no). ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/87 "2017-07-05T18:08:12Z")
> [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > At the time of filming the Nazis were the enemy, but not necessarily the incarnation of evil they turned out to be. The idea that they would still play by international rules/norms was likely not as absurd then as it seems in retrospect. For that matter, the idea of “letters of transit” is not all that absurd either. Back in the '90s, when I was living full-time in Moscow and before I got my first multi-entry business visa, I had to inform my Russian employer every time I wanted to leave the country. They would then get me an “exit visa” that was valid from the time of my departure through the date of my planned return. I couldn’t have left the country without one. I never bothered to ask, but I presume I would also have needed an exit visa of some sort if I was planning to leave the country and not return. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/88 "2017-07-05T18:22:03Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > For that matter, the idea of “letters of transit” is not all that absurd either. Back in the '90s, when I was living full-time in Moscow and before I got my first multi-entry business visa, I had to inform my Russian employer every time I wanted to leave the country. They would then get me an “exit visa” that was valid from the time of my departure through the date of my planned return. I couldn’t have left the country without one. The issue with the “letters of transit” is that they are a wild card exit visa. A regular exit visa is issued to a particular person, and can be denied if the issuing authority does not want the person to leave the country; the “letters of transit” would allow the bearer free exit, regardless of whether the local authorities would otherwise allow the person to leave. Plus many countries have exit visa requirements; there is no such thing as a letter of transit - it was made up for the movie. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/89 "2017-07-05T18:29:52Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > The Darmok episode of TNG. It’s ridiculous to suggest a space-faring race could have ever got to that stage and maintain a spacefaring society only using allusions to stories to communicate. But if you accept that big chunk of change upfront the plot around it is excellent. Yes, I mean how you do say “Pass me a 30 micron scorzy wrench” using a allusion. How do you tell those stories in the first place? Where did the words come from? But it has been fanwanked into they use these only as preliminaries to diplomatic messages, etc. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/90 "2017-07-05T18:33:15Z")
> [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](#): > > The issue with the “letters of transit” is that they are a wild card exit visa. A regular exit visa is issued to a particular person, and can be denied if the issuing authority does not want the person to leave the country; the “letters of transit” would allow the bearer free exit, regardless of whether the local authorities would otherwise allow the person to leave. > > Plus many countries have exit visa requirements; there is no such thing as a letter of transit - it was made up for the movie. Indeed, the film specifically mentions exit visas many times–Renault was trading them for sexual favors, for example. The “letters of transit” are treated as something very different. “Cannot be rescinded. Not even questioned,” if I remember Peter Lorre’s dialogue correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/91 "2017-07-05T18:41:17Z")
There’s also the movie [Double Jeopardy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Jeopardy_(1999_film)#Legal_accuracy), which is based off of an incorrect understanding of what double jeopardy means. No, even if you were falsely convicted of a murder, that doesn’t mean you can go commit murder later on and get off scot-free. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/92 "2017-07-05T18:41:33Z")
> [@jkirkman](#): > > Well, that is because there _IS_ no balcony in _Romeo and Juliet_ . 🙂 > > One of those things that was added later on. Juliet is at a window, and they sometimes have balconies. So, it can be called, fairly the “balcony scene”. Now if they met in a garden or on the beach, yes, you can say no balcony. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/93 "2017-07-05T18:58:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, I mean how you do say “Pass me a 30 micron scorzy wrench” using a allusion. How do you tell those stories in the first place? Where did the words come from? Memory Alpha says they use music to convey mathematical concepts, and they ‘tell’ those allusion stories by enacting them – and there’s apparently a healthy dose of gesturing and vocal cues involved for _nuance,_ but nuance is pretty much useless if the talkee doesn’t get the basic concept that’s being modified. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/94 "2017-07-05T19:37:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, I mean how you do say “Pass me a 30 micron scorzy wrench” using a allusion. “Magliozzi, with the warped brake rotors.” ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/95 "2017-07-05T20:15:42Z")
Just started watching _Dark Matter_, and while I like it so far, the Asian guy is from Space Japan. Hundreds of years in the future and there is an emperor, samurai armor with clan crests, and the full gamut of both samurai and ninja bladed and blunt force weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/96 "2017-07-05T20:25:24Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > “Magliozzi, with the warped brake rotors.” “ **Robot Arm** , with the, uh, aforementioned cybernetic appendage.” ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/97 "2017-07-05T20:43:15Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > The Darmok episode of TNG. It’s ridiculous to suggest a space-faring race could have ever got to that stage and maintain a spacefaring society only using allusions to stories to communicate. But if you accept that big chunk of change upfront the plot around it is excellent. The telepathic ambassador who needed an entourage of three to express his thoughts was even dumber. And of course, Deanna had to gush “What a beautiful means of communication!” Uhm, no it wasn’t. It was just plain stupid! ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/98 "2017-07-05T21:01:24Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Memory Alpha says they use music to convey mathematical concepts, and they ‘tell’ those allusion stories by enacting them – and there’s apparently a healthy dose of gesturing and vocal cues involved for _nuance,_ but nuance is pretty much useless if the talkee doesn’t get the basic concept that’s being modified. Someone has to teach the Tamarian children the language structure they _use_ for all those flowery allusions the episode thinks are “language”. All of the phrases are translated with correct grammar – so how do the Tamarian’s learn the grammar for _that_ if they have no grammatical language? It’s just a crazy-ass pants-on-head stupid idea. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/99 "2017-07-05T21:57:03Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Someone has to teach the Tamarian children the language structure they _use_ for all those flowery allusions the episode thinks are “language”. All of the phrases are translated with correct grammar – so how do the Tamarian’s learn the grammar for _that_ if they have no grammatical language? > > It’s just a crazy-ass pants-on-head stupid idea. Dumbass and Twobithack at Writer’s Meeting. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/100 "2017-07-05T22:50:00Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Someone has to teach the Tamarian children the language structure they _use_ for all those flowery allusions the episode thinks are “language”. All of the phrases are translated with correct grammar – so how do the Tamarian’s learn the grammar for _that_ if they have no grammatical language? > > It’s just a crazy-ass pants-on-head stupid idea. I don’t follow you. I mean, yeah, for the record I think it’s stupid; but I can imagine wide-eyed little kids watching stage actors quietly act out a little play where “Darmok” and “Jalad” unite against “The Beast Of Tanagra” – who, yes, is just some big dude growling and doing pantomime in a papier-mâché costume, but it still gets the message across for an impressionable audience: _two individuals put aside mutual suspicion to engage in friendly cooperation teaming up against a shared challenge_. And at the end of the playlet, the performers say “DARMOK-AND-JALAD-AT-TANAGRA.” And then it gets re-enacted for those kids. And then those kids re-enact it And they get it, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326.md?page=6)