# Best works with the dumbest plot elements **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 2, 2017, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326 "2017-07-02T02:26:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/101 "2017-07-06T00:59:42Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I don’t follow you. > > I mean, yeah, for the record I think it’s stupid; but I can imagine wide-eyed little kids watching stage actors quietly act out a little play where “Darmok” and “Jalad” unite against “The Beast Of Tanagra” – who, yes, is just some big dude growling and doing pantomime in a papier-mâché costume, but it still gets the message across for an impressionable audience: _two individuals put aside mutual suspicion to engage in friendly cooperation teaming up against a shared challenge_. And at the end of the playlet, the performers say “DARMOK-AND-JALAD-AT-TANAGRA.” > > And then it gets re-enacted for those kids. And then those kids re-enact it > > And they get it, right? Yes but once they learn it and it is the exclusive means of communication, it’s not going to remain metaphorical in practice. “Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra” will come to literally mean “You and me friends,” both In their own minds and for the purposes of the universal translator. For example, when I say the word “toilet” what comes to your mind? Is it the metaphorical meaning of “preparing oneself to start the day’s business” or is it literally the porcelain appliance into which one evacuates the bowels? Which meaning would the universal translator convey? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/102 "2017-07-06T01:16:17Z")
Another example: If someone is talking about a “crane” in the context of building construction or cinematography, does an image of a long-necked bird enter your mind first or does your mind go straight to the machinery? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/103 "2017-07-06T03:42:28Z")
Was just reminded of this… in _The Fellowship of the Ring_, how does Gollum make it through the rockslide that seals the doorway to Moria after the good guys just barely get in? He would’ve had to have been close enough for them to have seen him as they escaped from the Watcher in the Water. And yet a few scenes later, he’s following them through the abandoned Dwarven kingdom. I suppose he might’ve found another nearby entrance, but nobody else seems to know about one. ---
**Author:** ![MacSpon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@MacSpon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacSpon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/104 "2017-07-06T03:54:34Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Was just reminded of this… in _The Fellowship of the Ring_, how does Gollum make it through the rockslide that seals the doorway to Moria after the good guys just barely get in? He would’ve had to have been close enough for them to have seen him as they escaped from the Watcher in the Water. And yet a few scenes later, he’s following them through the abandoned Dwarven kingdom. I suppose he might’ve found another nearby entrance, but nobody else seems to know about one. He doesn’t follow them through the doorway at all. He was already in Moria when the Fellowship entered. This is covered explicitly in Book 2, Chapter 9, when Frodo says, “I suppose he was lurking in Moria, and picked up our trail then.” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/105 "2017-07-06T03:57:47Z")
> [@MacSpon](#): > > He doesn’t follow them through the doorway at all. He was already in Moria when the Fellowship entered. This is covered explicitly in Book 2, Chapter 9, when Frodo says, “I suppose he was lurking in Moria, and picked up our trail then.” Huh. I don’t remember that. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/106 "2017-07-06T14:38:16Z")
Max Ehrlich, better known for _The Reincarnation of Peter Proud_, wrote a superior book titled _The Big Eye_. The premise of the book doesn’t past muster: a rogue planetoid or meteor is discovered by a Palomar Observatory astronomer, who verifies that it will make an extraordinarily close pass by earth but not collide; he decides that the interest of world peace will be best served by lying to everyone and doing a press conference telling the world that we have 2 years to live, that it’s going to destroy the earth. It’s a well-written story and _far_ better than contrasting visions where the prospects of planetary collision result in a Darwinian struggle to be on some kind of tiny survivor escape rocket. (This book isn’t about who gets to survive, it’s about the world coming to grips with its own demise) But we’re being asked to believe that no one, not one single astronomer on the planet, would do an independent orbit calc and contradict him. It was set in 1960 or thereabouts. I know there was more respect for authority but there’s no way the USSR would not have done an independent evaluation, at a minimum. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/107 "2017-07-06T18:14:03Z")
**Star Wars, Return of the Jedi** A bounty hunter (secretly Leia, yes I know. That has nothing to do with my point) brings in Chewbacca to collect his (yes, I know the possessive should be “her.” That has fuck-all to do with my point, so don’t point it out) bounty from Jabba the Hut. He talks in his native language. C-3PO translates to English. Jabba responds in his native language. C-3PO translates in English. The bounty hunter responds in his native language. Cycle repeats. _If both parties understand English, why not speak in English?_ Yes, Star Wars is full of humans speaking to aliens in English, and the aliens respond in alien, and the humans understand it. If all living beings in the Star Wars Universe are capable of understanding each other speak, no matter what the language, why use interpreter droids at all? ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/108 "2017-07-06T18:31:15Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > **Star Wars, Return of the Jedi** > > A bounty hunter (secretly Leia, yes I know. That has nothing to do with my point) brings in Chewbacca to collect his (yes, I know the possessive should be “her.” That has fuck-all to do with my point, so don’t point it out) bounty from Jabba the Hut. He talks in his native language. C-3PO translates to English. Jabba responds in his native language. C-3PO translates in English. The bounty hunter responds in his native language. Cycle repeats. _If both parties understand English, why not speak in English?_ > > Yes, Star Wars is full of humans speaking to aliens in English, and the aliens respond in alien, and the humans understand it. If all living beings in the Star Wars Universe are capable of understanding each other speak, no matter what the language, why use interpreter droids at all? Eh. I can easily chalk that up to either: 1. C3PO isn’t actually speaking the same language both times he speaks “english”. The first translation is in huttese (to Jabba), and the second is from huttese to bounty-hunter. The english is merely a storytelling aid so that we (the viewers) can get a better sense for C3PO’s emotions while he is translating. For the same reason that nobody a long time ago in a galaxy far far away would be speaking english to begin with. 2. Both understand the common “english” language, but do not speak it well enough to carry on a conversation, or do not want to sully themselves by doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/109 "2017-07-06T18:58:50Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > **Star Wars, Return of the Jedi** > > A bounty hunter (secretly Leia, yes I know. That has nothing to do with my point) brings in Chewbacca to collect his (yes, I know the possessive should be “her.” That has fuck-all to do with my point, so don’t point it out) bounty from Jabba the Hut. He talks in his native language. C-3PO translates to English. Jabba responds in his native language. C-3PO translates in English. The bounty hunter responds in his native language. Cycle repeats. _If both parties understand English, why not speak in English?_ > > Yes, Star Wars is full of humans speaking to aliens in English, and the aliens respond in alien, and the humans understand it. If all living beings in the Star Wars Universe are capable of understanding each other speak, no matter what the language, why use interpreter droids at all? I spent some time living with a Mexican family as a teen. I was able to pick up some Spanish, but still, I could understand WAY more Spanish than I could actually speak. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/110 "2017-07-06T19:11:01Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > Eh. I can easily chalk that up to either: > > 1. C3PO isn’t actually speaking the same language both times he speaks “english”. The first translation is in huttese (to Jabba), and the second is from huttese to bounty-hunter. The english is merely a storytelling aid so that we (the viewers) can get a better sense for C3PO’s emotions while he is translating. For the same reason that nobody a long time ago in a galaxy far far away would be speaking english to begin with. > 2. Both understand the common “english” language, but do not speak it well enough to carry on a conversation, or do not want to sully themselves by doing so. It’s a common conceit in Star Wars that a lot of races simply don’t have the vocal equipment to speak other languages properly (see: Chewbacca, R2D2) but are otherwise perfectly fluent in those languages (see: virtually every interaction they have with anybody.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/111 "2017-07-06T19:23:42Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > C-3PO translates to English. Jabba responds in his native language. C-3PO translates in English. The bounty hunter responds in his native language. Cycle repeats. _If both parties understand English, why not speak in English?_ > > Yes, Star Wars is full of humans speaking to aliens in English, and the aliens respond in alien, and the humans understand it. If all living beings in the Star Wars Universe are capable of understanding each other speak, no matter what the language, why use interpreter droids at all? > [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > Eh. I can easily chalk that up to either: > > 1. C3PO isn’t actually speaking the same language both times he speaks “english”. This is what I was going to say. In Star Wars, no one is ever speaking English and the English you hear in the screen stands in for different languages at different times, even in a single scene. Remember, it’s not a documentary. You’re not being shown a recording prof actual events or even a literal recreation of purported actual events. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/112 "2017-07-06T19:31:55Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is what I was going to say. In Star Wars, no one is ever speaking English and the English you hear in the screen stands in for different languages at different times, even in a single scene. > > Remember, it’s not a documentary. You’re not being shown a recording prof actual events or even a literal recreation of purported actual events. And Artoo is an unreliable narrator. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/113 "2017-07-06T20:04:24Z")
I remember reading the novelization of **Return of the Jedi** many years ago, and it was mentioned that, although Jabba understood many languages, he refused to speak anything but Huttese. I was listening to a podcast this morning, and someone said (I think in the context of people from different parts of Los Angeles) that, “it’s a real Montague/Capulet type situation.” Which seems like a reference similar to the whole “Darmok” thing, a cultural reference that defies translation without further explanation. It’s just hard to imagine a language that drops the explanations entirely and makes do solely with the cultural references. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/114 "2017-07-06T20:24:02Z")
Has SW been properly fanwanked so we can gloss over the stupidity in building robots you can’t communicate with? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/115 "2017-07-06T20:35:47Z")
So you’re telling me this guy kills his own father, \*and \*just happens to marry his own mother? Puh-lease. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/116 "2017-07-06T20:50:26Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > I remember reading the novelization of **Return of the Jedi** many years ago, and it was mentioned that, although Jabba understood many languages, he refused to speak anything but Huttese. > > I was listening to a podcast this morning, and someone said (I think in the context of people from different parts of Los Angeles) that, “it’s a real Montague/Capulet type situation.” Which seems like a reference similar to the whole “Darmok” thing, a cultural reference that defies translation without further explanation. It’s just hard to imagine a language that drops the explanations entirely and makes do solely with the cultural references. We have other ways of describing that situation. It’s conceivable that we could lose common usage of generic descriptions of family rivalries but were that to happen Montague-Capulet wouldn’t be a metaphor any more. It would be literal with a literal translation to other languages. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/117 "2017-07-06T21:47:15Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And then it gets re-enacted for those kids. And then those kids re-enact it > > And they get it, right? Except that’s not nearly reliable enough that an entire society would come up with a single agreed-upon meaning for the term. I couldn’t tell you how often I’ve heard someone else’s interpretation of a dramatic work, and thought to myself, “What? That’s what you got from that?!?” And that’s us using a fairly complex grammatical structure to tell our stories. From another Star Trek series, Garak’s interpretation of the “Boy who cried wolf” story: “Never tell the same lie twice!” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/118 "2017-07-06T22:30:11Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Except that’s not nearly reliable enough that an entire society would come up with a single agreed-upon meaning for the term. I couldn’t tell you how often I’ve heard someone else’s interpretation of a dramatic work, and thought to myself, “What? That’s what you got from that?!?” And that’s us using a fairly complex grammatical structure to tell our stories. But, like I said, take “Trojan Horse” or “Achilles’ Heel”: each of those references _does_ have an agreed-upon meaning, right? When folks say “Only Nixon Could Go To China,” you _could_ take it in various ways – but I’m guessing you _don’t_, I’m guessing you nod just as knowingly as if they’d said “Kryptonite” or “Iago” or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/119 "2017-07-06T23:29:04Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But, like I said, take “Trojan Horse” or “Achilles’ Heel”: each of those references _does_ have an agreed-upon meaning, right? When folks say “Only Nixon Could Go To China,” you _could_ take it in various ways – but I’m guessing you _don’t_, I’m guessing you nod just as knowingly as if they’d said “Kryptonite” or “Iago” or whatever. Those metaphors are set in a context of am entire non-metaphorical language. A.language that is only metaphors is impossible because you can’t contract a metaphor without a literal language underlying it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/120 "2017-07-06T23:53:46Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Those metaphors are set in a context of am entire non-metaphorical language. A.language that is only metaphors is impossible because you can’t contract a metaphor without a literal language underlying it. But the Tamarians _do_ have a literal language underlying it, don’t they? The climax of the episode is when – after all that time Dathon spent trying to get Picard to live out the Darmok-and-Jalad-at-Tanagra experience – Picard runs through three or four quick allusions to explain what happened; and the Tamarian officer, who’d been on the brink of destroying the Enterprise but now does a Go In Peace bit, sums up the situation as _“Picard and Dathon, at El-Adrel.”_ And _“and”_ gets translated, just like _“at”_ does. And when they mentioned that river in winter, it maybe wasn’t obvious what that’s a metaphor for; but the words _“river”_ and _“winter”_ got translated fine. And _“when the walls fell”_ of course got translated, too, word-for-word, because that’s literal; it’s _“Shaka, when the walls fell”_ that means something as a figure of speech – which I’m guessing was supposed to be a reference to literal walls that literally fell. I’m guessing that Temba is supposed to be a guy with literal arms, just like Achilles is supposed to be a guy with literal heels. And I’m guessing Kiteo had literal eyes, since the word “eyes” got translated. And I’m guessing Darmok was on a literal ocean, since the phrase “on the ocean” got translated. And et cetera. Honestly, it seems the odd part of the episode is that Universal Translators work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326.md?page=7)