# Best works with the dumbest plot elements **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 2, 2017, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326 "2017-07-02T02:26:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/141 "2017-07-08T19:03:39Z")
James Stewart’s vertigo “hallucinations” in _Vertigo_. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/142 "2017-07-08T19:09:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That resolves the problems with the episode’s plot, but at the cost of wrecking the tone. The alien captain goes from being a noble figure willing to risk his life to bridge a seemingly uncrossable communication gap, to someone who’s got a stick so far up his ass he’d rather die than unbend just a little, and who doesn’t particularly care who dies with him as a result. I’ve never really understood the need to come up with deep diving explanations like that. It’s much more enjoyable to me to say ‘well, that situation doesn’t actually make sense, but if you ignore that then does the episode work?’, especially since (like in this case) the deep diving explanation ends up completely changing the tone of the episode. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/143 "2017-07-08T21:56:48Z")
> [@Eddie The Horrible](#): > > James Stewart’s vertigo “hallucinations” in _Vertigo_. They’re a dumb plot element? They may be poorly executed as a means to simulate the feeling of vertigo, but they seem to fill the need in the story for us to believe in his problem with heights. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/144 "2017-07-08T22:44:38Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > They’re a dumb plot element? They may be poorly executed as a means to simulate the feeling of vertigo, but they seem to fill the need in the story for us to believe in his problem with heights. True - yeah, if only it was done better. In _Frantic_ (ok not a “best work” by any means but not _Fearless Vampire Killers_\* either) the baddies could have simply snatched their (misplaced in the airport) suitcase from Harrison Ford’s hotel room instead of having to kidnap his wife from it. \*Gotta say that ballroom dancing scene near the end, though, (quite the amazing single take) was pretty splunge. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/145 "2017-07-08T23:04:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, they’re a bunch of stuck up elitists who are willing to kidnap people - potentially starting an interstellar war - rather than make the effort of communicating in a way that’s comprehensible to their alien neighbors? > > That resolves the problems with the episode’s plot, but at the cost of wrecking the tone. The alien captain goes from being a noble figure willing to risk his life to bridge a seemingly uncrossable communication gap, to someone who’s got a stick so far up his ass he’d rather die than unbend just a little, and who doesn’t particularly care who dies with him as a result. If it helps, how about this? Back when you were in diapers, you maybe came up with your own words for stuff. You know, as babies _do,_ just babbling as they gesture at something. But, eventually, you learned what your mother and father called it; and you went to school, where a succession of teachers all called it that – and all of the kids you went to school with, they all called it that, too. And so did you, eventually. And so, now, you only ever use _that word_ for it. And if you met a guy who spoke your language, you’d keep using that word; but, if he was from a different culture, you’d be perfectly willing to hear what word his people use for it. Like, even though you and people like you ask for “water” when thirsty, you know that others with a _different_ common language ask for “agua” or “eau” or whatever. But, again, _you no longer spout gibberish to create a word for it_ – you haven’t done much of that since you were a baby – and you don’t think a grown man who happens to speak a different language is doing that, either? I mean, surely he and his just use an agreed-upon term for it, as must be the custom in their culture? Yes, at some point, _somebody_ must have made up the word he’s using; and, granted, you _could_ babble the way infants do to make up a new word right now. But so what? Are you even going to think about that? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/146 "2017-07-09T00:19:36Z")
What? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/147 "2017-07-09T00:51:07Z")
It’s simple: how do we think about infants babbling when they make up a new word for something? Well, we’d maybe think it’s silly and babyish – except we don’t much think about it _at all,_ since we aren’t much in the habit of doing it nowadays; we pretty much just use whatever agreed-upon word our culture uses. If you ever discover some entirely new thing and feel like making up a word for it, I guess you’re perfectly capable of doing so; but how often does that happen, really? Anyhow, I figure that’s maybe how a Tamarian thinks about phrases: the way we think about words. He could – and probably _did_ – come up with new ones when he was young; but so what? He hardly ever thinks of that, now; he eventually realized he was supposed to use the agreed-upon phrases used by everyone in his culture, the way you realized you’re supposed to use the agreed-upon words used by everyone in your culture. And, likewise, it’s not that he _can’t_ create an entirely new phrase; he can do it as easily as you can create an entirely new word. But how often do you do that? How often do you seriously think about doing that? If you met a guy who spoke a different language, would you assume he’s just making up words on the spot? No, you’d assume he’s using his culture’s agreed-upon words, as part of some existing language; it wouldn’t even occur to you to communicate with him by relying on the opposite assumption. And the Tamarian – well, likewise doesn’t assume the bald guy in front of him is making up phrases on the spot; why, surely he’s merely using _his_ culture’s agreed-upon phrases, right? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/148 "2017-07-09T01:49:36Z")
None of that gets around the fact that on a routine basis they exclusively communicate through the supposed metaphors. If they don’t use the underlying language as adults, that underlying language atrophies and dies out and the metaphors become literal. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/149 "2017-07-09T16:35:37Z")
Oh, another area where you can have bad plot devices in an otherwise good story is with guns, because a lot of writers tend to go with ‘general hollywood liberal’ ideas on guns without thinking too deeply about how things work, especially on things like serial numbers. This one is pretty common, the specific one that sticks with me is an episode of Babylon 5. The big reveal is that they captured some bad guys who had PPGs (plasma guns, the standard sidearm in the setting) when they tried to trace where the guns came from, they found that there were no serial numbers. This is a big deal because the coils for the guns can’t be manufactured in any kind of private factory, and the serial number is stamped onto all coils as they’re made and can’t be removed without breaking the coils. However, the Earthgov spy agency does get some guns without serial numbers manufactured so that they can’t be traced, which means the guys they captured have some kind of high government connections! The idea of ‘serial numbers let you trace guns, removing serial numbers is a thing bad guys do, making a gun with no serial number makes it untraceable’ makes a certain amount of sense, but falls apart in practice. Like happened in the episode, it’s basically like putting “I HAS SPY GUN I R SPY” in the serial number spot, and actually makes it more easily traceable - you don’t even have to follow a serial number to find where it came from. A competent spy agency would use guns that trace back somewhere that doesn’t scream “I’m a spy”, like a shipment that went to a foreign resistance group, a lost shipment, a known criminal, or a regular store somewhere. It doesn’t ruin the episode, but I remember standing out as silly at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/150 "2017-07-09T18:15:16Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > I’ve never really understood the need to come up with deep diving explanations like that. It’s much more enjoyable to me to say ‘well, that situation doesn’t actually make sense, but if you ignore that then does the episode work?’, especially since (like in this case) the deep diving explanation ends up completely changing the tone of the episode. I’ve never really understood being into science fiction, and not being interested in “deep diving” into the concepts the medium presents. “Literature of ideas,” and all that. Not that I’d call this a particularly “deep” read. The first time I saw this episode and they said, “They only speak in metaphors,” it threw me right out of the story. It’s just too dumb of an idea to suspend my disbelief from. I mean, I’ll accept goofy bullshit if the story is supposed to just be goofy bullshit. The TOS episode where someone leaves a book on 1930s Chicago behind on a planet, and the inhabitants use it to turn their planet into World of Gangsters, worked because they weren’t doing anything more ambitious than, “Wouldn’t it be hilarious to get Kirk in a pinstripe suit?” “Darmok” is trying to be serious, emotionally effecting television, but the dumb premise spoils the whole thing from the gate. It’s like if, at the end of Wrath of Khan, Spock fixed the engines by replacing the broken dilithium crystals with a bowl of chocolate pudding. As good as the rest of the movie is, it’s tainted by relying on such a transparently stupid idea to carry its plot. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/151 "2017-07-09T19:02:29Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’ve never really understood being into science fiction, and not being interested in “deep diving” into the concepts the medium presents. “Literature of ideas,” and all that. Not that I’d call this a particularly “deep” read. The first time I saw this episode and they said, “They only speak in metaphors,” it threw me right out of the story. It’s just too dumb of an idea to suspend my disbelief from. > > I mean, I’ll accept goofy bullshit if the story is supposed to just be goofy bullshit. The TOS episode where someone leaves a book on 1930s Chicago behind on a planet, and the inhabitants use it to turn their planet into World of Gangsters, worked because they weren’t doing anything more ambitious than, “Wouldn’t it be hilarious to get Kirk in a pinstripe suit?” Heh. See, I always thought they were going for something a _touch_ bigger than that, there: _“They evidently seized upon that one book as the blueprint for an entire society,”_ says Spock, and McCoy agrees: _“As the Bible.”_ ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/152 "2017-07-09T23:49:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, I mean how you do say “Pass me a 30 micron scorzy wrench” using a allusion… “Darmok helping Jalad tighten the 30 micron nuts on the lawn furniture at Tanagra…” ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/153 "2017-07-10T02:03:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’ve never really understood being into science fiction, and not being interested in “deep diving” into the concepts the medium presents. Not sure why you posted this in response to me, since I said nothing against diving into the concepts that the medium presents. What I said was that I don’t understand “deep diving explanations”, meaning things like the post you were pointing out problems with. I’m not saying I ‘don’t understand if people think about the epsiode’, I’m saying ‘I don’t understand when go on a deep diving expedition to come up with a fanwank explanation that doesn’t fit with what the episode is trying to do’. It’s bizarre to me that people will make multi-paragraph explanations of something that’s obviously just an idea of the writer’s that doesn’t work, and keep arguing them (like is happening in this thread), not that people see an idea and find that it doesn’t work. > [@](#): > > The first time I saw this episode and they said, “They only speak in metaphors,” it threw me right out of the story. It’s just too dumb of an idea to suspend my disbelief from. Right, you don’t try to dive deep for some explanation of the idea that doesn’t actually follow from anything in the episode or the series, and that breaks what the episode is trying to do. If it’s too much for you, then you write off the episode, if (like me) it’s not too much, then you just accept it as something goofy the writers did. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/154 "2017-07-10T12:00:06Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > So you’re telling me this guy kills his own father, \*and \*just happens to marry his own mother? Puh-lease. :rolleyes: > [@DrDeth](#): > > 😕😕😕 [Oedipus Rex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_Rex) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/155 "2017-07-10T16:14:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > …someone who’s got a stick so far up his ass he’d rather die than unbend just a little, and who doesn’t particularly care who dies with him as a result. Yeah, and we all know how well _that_ worked out for him. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/156 "2017-07-10T16:48:17Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > [Oedipus Rex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_Rex) Because _of course_ that is the only time in all of media that has occurred.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/157 "2017-07-10T16:59:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Because _of course_ that is the only time in all of media that has occurred.:rolleyes: I mean, it’s pretty famous. “Oedipal complex” and all that… I suppose in other circles all this “Darmok at Tenagra” business would be the obscure cultural reference that left people scratching their heads, but not on the SDMB. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/158 "2017-07-10T17:19:40Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > I mean, it’s pretty famous. “Oedipal complex” and all that… Yes, and i knew that, but since Roderick Femm didnt both telling me which one of many representations he was talking about, my confusion. I was thinking there was a Star Trek Oedipus plotline… ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/159 "2017-07-10T19:17:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, and i knew that, but since Roderick Femm didnt both telling me which one of many representations he was talking about, my confusion. I was thinking there was a Star Trek Oedipus plotline… Kiteo, his eyes closed. Temba at rest. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326/160 "2017-07-10T20:26:53Z")
[Moderating] > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > [Here, read a book.](https://www.amazon.com/Oedipus-Rex-Sophocles/dp/1548339873/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1499477681&sr=1-4&keywords=oedipus) Or if that takes too long, [listen to a song.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScdJURKGWM) **Roderick Femm** , I realize that tone is difficult to convey in a text medium, but that came across as a lot more insulting than it needed to be. Please try to reel it in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/best-works-with-the-dumbest-plot-elements/790326.md?page=9)