# Better Call Saul: Season IV **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 30, 2018, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792 "2018-07-30T04:48:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/883 "2018-09-27T11:50:37Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > It’s a good thing no one in the DA’s office knows how to use WHOIS: > > Obviously the date in the TV show wouldn’t have been 2018, but it would have only been a few days before the “save Huell” campaign. And this isn’t a “save Huell” website; this is the _church_ website, so presumably it would have existed long before Huell’s legal issues. In 2004? Not sure people were that tech savvy or it was that easy to do so for a layperson. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/884 "2018-09-27T13:15:22Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > In 2004? Not sure people were that tech savvy or it was that easy to do so for a layperson. WHOIS existed since the early 80s, and was a standard command on UNIX systems. Typical internet accounts in the 90s included access to a UNIX shell run by the ISP, and WHOIS websites existed by the late 90s. An average person today or then doesn’t know much about it, but it’s not obscure for someone technical, and the police in a city of 2 million people would have some technical investigators on staff in 2004. So it’s a really easy thing to do and not just weird obscure knowledge or something you couldn’t do in 2004. OTOH, that’s not a particularly hard track for Jimmy and friends to cover. The real domain was picked because it was something that was available in 2018 with minimal effort, they weren’t trying to hide anything. In the world and time of the show, they’d put in a bit more effort. Domain name squatters (people who registered a bunch of names in the hope of reselling them later) were common back then, so if he bought the name from one of them, it would show a registered date of whenever the squatter bought it, not something extremely recent. And it’s possible they could leave the contact info as the squatters or whatever hosting service the squatter uses, so there wouldn’t even be a contact info change date. That is probably outside of the kind of expertise a broke film student would have, so they would need to get a tech guy through the vet to have done it, which ups the cost but isn’t unbelievable. So it’s really reasonable for the writers to go either way, the domain registration could be something they screwed up, or it could be covered, and it’s easy enough to cover, complex enough to explain, and not something a main character would be invoved in so I wouldn’t expect to see it on the show. Finally, this is all a sidetrack because if the ADA does think the Church is a fraud, they’d blow it open before they were even able to schedule time with the police forensics guys. They’d just call the local PD or sheriff (or whatever LA calls their local law enforcement) to ask some basic questions about the church, and then a few minutes of back and forth would find that the local cops have never heard of the place and the address is actually something else entirely. Once they know that it’s fake, they’d pull the domain registration stuff along with a bunch of other records like the real estate records for the address (showing that the church is fake), plus local property tax, license, and voter registration rolls (to show that the people were fake), and phone records (to show that the numbers don’t go to local land lines). ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/885 "2018-09-27T13:31:42Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Finally, this is all a sidetrack because if the ADA does think the Church is a fraud, they’d blow it open before they were even able to schedule time with the police forensics guys. They’d just call the local PD or sheriff (or whatever LA calls their local law enforcement) to ask some basic questions about the church, and then a few minutes of back and forth would find that the local cops have never heard of the place and the address is actually something else entirely. Once they know that it’s fake, they’d pull the domain registration stuff along with a bunch of other records like the real estate records for the address (showing that the church is fake), plus local property tax, license, and voter registration rolls (to show that the people were fake), and phone records (to show that the numbers don’t go to local land lines). Are ADAs in the habit of doing all this for one simple assault charge? Aren’t there typically many other cases of more importance for her to be spending time on? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/886 "2018-09-27T14:13:13Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Finally, this is all a sidetrack because if the ADA does think the Church is a fraud, > [@Slash1972](#): > > Are ADAs in the habit of doing all this for one simple assault charge? Aren’t there typically many other cases of more importance for her to be spending time on? You’re overlooking the stipulation in the first line - if the church is a fraud, then this isn’t one simple assault charge. If the ADA actually thinks the church is a fraud, she first calls local LEOs to ask for basic info about the alleged church (to figure out if it’s a fraud using the Church’s name or if it’s actually involved), which quickly establishes that the entity doesn’t even exist, and that takes less effort and cost than she actually spent looking into the letters. Once it’s clear that the church is a fictional entity created in an attempt to fool the court, the investigation is no longer about overcharging a swinging bag of sandwiches. Instead it’s a huge case, probably career-defining, that involves multiple major state felonies that constitute a direct assault on the functioning of the courts, plus federal charges for crossing state lines and using the mail. Instead of Judge Neelix being annoyed at the idea of charter busses of yokels flooding his court over a nothing case, he’s going to be furious at the assault on the actual functioning of the court. Pulling records of every entity involved in a major case is incredibly routine. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/887 "2018-09-27T14:32:30Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Instead it’s a huge case, probably career-defining, that involves multiple major state felonies that constitute a direct assault on the functioning of the courts, plus federal charges for crossing state lines and using the mail. Instead of Judge Neelix being annoyed at the idea of charter busses of yokels flooding his court over a nothing case, he’s going to be furious at the assault on the actual functioning of the court. Pulling records of every entity involved in a major case is incredibly routine. A major case against _who_, though? Kim has enough plausible deniability. Jimmy is very unlikely to turn against her, and I’m not sure what leverage the DA has to force him to. If he takes the 5th, then what? Track down random bus passengers? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/888 "2018-09-27T14:42:25Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > You’re overlooking the stipulation in the first line - if the church is a fraud, then this isn’t one simple assault charge. If the ADA actually thinks the church is a fraud, she first calls local LEOs to ask for basic info about the alleged church (to figure out if it’s a fraud using the Church’s name or if it’s actually involved), which quickly establishes that the entity doesn’t even exist, and that takes less effort and cost than she actually spent looking into the letters. Once it’s clear that the church is a fictional entity created in an attempt to fool the court, the investigation is no longer about overcharging a swinging bag of sandwiches. Instead it’s a huge case, probably career-defining, that involves multiple major state felonies that constitute a direct assault on the functioning of the courts, plus federal charges for crossing state lines and using the mail. Instead of Judge Neelix being annoyed at the idea of charter busses of yokels flooding his court over a nothing case, he’s going to be furious at the assault on the actual functioning of the court. Pulling records of every entity involved in a major case is incredibly routine. People on a bus sending letters to a court is a major felony? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/889 "2018-09-27T14:46:51Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > You’re overlooking the stipulation in the first line - if the church is a fraud, then this isn’t one simple assault charge. If the ADA actually thinks the church is a fraud, she first calls local LEOs to ask for basic info about the alleged church (to figure out if it’s a fraud using the Church’s name or if it’s actually involved), which quickly establishes that the entity doesn’t even exist, and that takes less effort and cost than she actually spent looking into the letters. Once it’s clear that the church is a fictional entity created in an attempt to fool the court, the investigation is no longer about overcharging a swinging bag of sandwiches. Instead it’s a huge case, probably career-defining, that involves multiple major state felonies that constitute a direct assault on the functioning of the courts, plus federal charges for crossing state lines and using the mail. Instead of Judge Neelix being annoyed at the idea of charter busses of yokels flooding his court over a nothing case, he’s going to be furious at the assault on the actual functioning of the court. Pulling records of every entity involved in a major case is incredibly routine. This post does a great job of highlighting the unbelievable risk Kim took on with this scam. I get that she’s bored - the scene where the bank owner floats the idea of scrapping the work done so far to build an eyecatching new bank and Kim acts with due regard to her clients’ best interest by sticking with the safe approach shows, in retrospect, how she’s suppressing her instincts in service of the job and career. And ok - the “thrill” of pro bono work isn’t what she thought it would be. But to go for something so over the top straight out the gate is manic. Clearly it’s a big thrill for her, but she must know the risk she just took. And yet we end with her saying she wants to do more. It’s hard to believe this isn’t a one way track to an outcome that is not necessarily to her advantage. Which is a big twist, because up to now it looked pretty clearly that Kim was on a different track to Jimmy and would prioritise solid career prospects and respectability over Jimmy’s live fast die young approach to life’s challenges. But no. Kim’s poker face when confronted with Jimmy’s shucking and jiving wasn’t hiding disappointment or regret, it was hiding her envy and excitement. Kim and Jimmy don’t stay together. If it’s not because she took the high road, is it because she’s going to take the low and, metaphorically, crash? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/890 "2018-09-27T15:07:42Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > A major case against _who_, though? Kim has enough plausible deniability. Jimmy is very unlikely to turn against her, and I’m not sure what leverage the DA has to force him to. If he takes the 5th, then what? Track down random bus passengers? It’s kind of a “Duh”, but the high end lawyer weirdly interested in the minor case where a miracle happened, and the scumbag disbarred lawyer con-man who works with the defendant would be the obvious first suspects, then they’d add more as they find more names from digging. For a major felony case, pulling all of the records of every entity involved doesn’t take a lot of effort and would happen long before they get to formally charging anyone. With the phone and website records, they’d almost certainly have shipping records on the phones pointing towards Jimmy and maybe whoever he worked with to get LA area codes on the numbers, plus whoever created and registered that website. Jimmy’s literal fingerprints and DNA (licking envelopes) are all over the letters too, Kim’s may turn up depending on how careful she was when buying the stuff (we didn’t see her wearing gloves), his are definitely on file (he’s been arrested in multiple states) and hers probably are (lawyers usually do, I think). Whether they can actually convict anyone would be at the whim of the writers since it would involve a ton of stuff that’s not explicitly shown, but there is a lot for them to dig into. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/891 "2018-09-27T15:12:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > People on a bus sending letters to a court is a major felony? If that’s all that happens, nope. But what happened on the show involved more things than just people on a bus sending letters to a court. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/892 "2018-09-27T15:15:43Z")
In a world where District Attorneys have infinite time and resources (as well as the omniscient perspective given to us, the audience), I can picture her _trying_ to go after Kim and Jimmy, at least until the first motion to dismiss. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/893 "2018-09-27T15:29:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > In a world where District Attorneys have infinite time and resources (as well as the omniscient perspective given to us, the audience), I can picture her _trying_ to go after Kim and Jimmy, at least until the first motion to dismiss. In the real world, DAs are generally quite willing to spend their limited time and resources going after people who attempt multiple interstate felonies that impact the functioning of the justice system. And judges are generally even more agitated by people trying to interfere with the courts than DAs, and actually usually don’t dismiss cases where there is abundant probable cause like this hypothetical. If the ADA came back to Judge Neelix pointing out that the supposed church all of these letters were coming from doesn’t exist, and the names on those letters actually don’t turn up in the state they’re supposed to be coming from, he would move rapidly from ‘I don’t want a circus in my courtroom’ to ‘who attempted to turn my courtroom into a circus’. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/894 "2018-09-27T15:32:52Z")
I don’t know how that gets her to Kim at any point, though. If she’s willing to blow her budget gathering DNA evidence on Jimmy, best of luck to her. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/895 "2018-09-27T15:40:42Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > People on a bus sending letters to a court is a major felony? Also, to make clear how little you need to add to the situation to turn ‘sending letters to court’ into a major felony, if they simply sent the letters to a Federal Court instead of a NM court, they’d be risking five years in federal prison, as making any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry is a federal felony. I’m not going to bother digging into New Mexico’s laws to figure out exactly what state statutes the actual show situation violates, or into Federal law to figure out exactly what Federal laws would come into play for sending things to a state court, because this is enough to show that sending false documents to courts is a really big deal in the justice system. > [@18 U.S. Code § 1001 - Statements or entries generally](#): > > (a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully— > (1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact; > (2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or > (3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry; > shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both. If the matter relates to an offense under chapter 109A, 109B, 110, or 117, or section 1591, then the term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be not more than 8 years. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/896 "2018-09-27T16:34:59Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Yes, Jimmy and Kim got away with their scam (which was her idea), but what does it do for her reputation in Albuquerque legal circles? Certainly word will spread about the kind of clients she represents. Not really the sort of clients one expects from a respectable attorney, especially not one in the banking business. Fair point. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/897 "2018-09-27T16:46:27Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > If that’s all that happens, nope. But what happened on the show involved more things than just people on a bus sending letters to a court. Well, a web site was set up for a church. A go-fund-me type page was set up for Huel. People made up information to a strange person who called them on the phone. I’m still having trouble seeing the major felonies involved. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/898 "2018-09-27T16:55:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > People on a bus sending letters to a court is a major felony? Wouldn’t that fall under mail fraud? I think Jimmy even mentioned it to Kim. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/899 "2018-09-27T17:09:49Z")
There’s no expectation of personal gain for the letter writers (beyond getting paid for writing the letters themselves). And it’s not illegal for me to get paid for writing a letter. (Now the intent on the part of the person paying me might be illegal, but that’s their problem.) ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/900 "2018-09-27T17:57:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m still having trouble seeing the major felonies involved. That’s really too bad for you then. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/901 "2018-09-27T18:05:13Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m still having trouble seeing the major felonies involved. From the [recap in The New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/24/arts/television/better-call-saul-recap-season-4-episode-8.html), “Standing outside a building that may become his new office, Jimmy lists the acts of legal malpractice the two of them just committed, including a couple hundred counts of mail fraud.” ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792/902 "2018-09-27T18:08:51Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > That’s really too bad for you then. I guess. Or I could just say “There are no felonies involved. You guys are wrong” Sort of the tact you are taking instead of discussing it. Perhaps you could explain how setting up a go-fund-me account for Huel is a major felony? Or how a person on a bus writing a letter to a judge extolling the virtues of Huel is “mail fraud”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-call-saul-season-iv/818792.md?page=46)