# Better Conservatives? Where?! (A response to Coffeecat) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 30, 2018, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208 "2018-09-30T08:43:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/361 "2018-10-04T13:53:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s just not true. There are many good reasons for someone to vote for Trump. Supreme Court is top of that list. Maybe there is at least one good reason. Decent people don’t see a thread in which women are talking about their experiences with sexual assault and enter the thread make a joke about a pussy grabber Halloween costume. Decent people don’t go to a rally where the president mocks a woman who recounted her sexual assault and laugh and cheer. Decent people don’t endorse a man who brags about committing sexual assault. Decent people don’t vote for a man who mimics and mocks a reporter’s disability. It’s that simple, decent people don’t do those things. People thing that evil is a guy in a black hat twirling his mustache, it’s not. It’s weak people who let their fear and ignorance dominate them. It’s weak people caught up in a mob chanting lock her up! Bad people are weak people who do nothing to overcome their weakness, who look for easy answers to complex questions and are waiting to be told who to blame. Weak people want a safe space for their ugly thoughts. They want to be thought of as good people even though they do bad things. They want to have a special suspension for their own good, but don’t want to have any consequences for their actions. Their weak and deep down they know it. The problem is they think that deep down everyone is as weak as they are. That’s why bigots always think that everyone is secretly as racist as they are. They think everyone is as afraid of black people as they are. They think everyone is as afraid of women as they are, they think everyone is as scared of being turned gay as they are. They’re weak and it makes them feel better if everyone else is just as weak and afraid as they are. It’s why they use terms like virtue signaling and social justice warrior. They can’t conceive of people just trying hard to be good people so they assume that those people are only pretending to try to be good, but deep down they are as weak as the Trumpists. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/362 "2018-10-04T13:54:21Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > What they’re told to. Their opposition is not to the things that Dems actually stand for but rather than to the fun-house mirror version that’s present in their preferred media. Ok. Let’s put the validity issue aside until we actually identify the arguments. What do you think they think? What are they seeing? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/363 "2018-10-04T13:58:14Z")
Most Americans supported white supremacism – up to and including the regular brutalization of black people and Native Americans – for centuries. Well into the 20th century, in fact, to some degree. It’s not exactly a strange or unusual thing when many millions of Americans support terrible things. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/364 "2018-10-04T14:00:15Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I propose a thought experiment: > > Assuming all of the above is true, readily apparent and well known, why would somebody choose Trump and Republicanism, over the Democrats? > > Whatever it is that they see or are afraid of from the left must be pretty bad if Trump is an acceptable alternative, mustn’t it. Let’s be clear: a vast majority of the Republican base wouldn’t ever consider the Democrats, so they are willing to tolerate anything, as long as the guy has a (R) after his name. They’re nigh but impossible to deal with rationally and they represent a huge majority of the Republican party. But, as I said earlier, convincing someone who is still interested in debate and still supports the Republican party despite knowing the evils this administration, and prior ones, have done, is a matter of changing their priorities. Putting an end to discrimination against minorities needs to become more important than a tax break. Stopping the massive, governmentally-sanctioned benefits to the rich and building the lower and middle classes needs to become more important than business interests. Protecting the environment and the health of the people has to become more important than business interests in gutting regulations. Helping people who are suffering and don’t have the ability to buy themselves out of it has to become more important than saving tax money to give to rich people. Equality, fairness, honesty, and judicial temperament has to become more important than putting a sexual assaulting, perjurying Republican on the Supreme Court. And returning the public debate of issues to a more reasonable, more factually based discussion has to become more important than scoring cheap political points, making silly analogies to make silly points, and saying might makes right. Until there is some willingness to discuss the priorities and more importantly the cost of selecting certainly priorities over others, we’re pretty much stuck. Of course, lumping the tiny minority of “good conservatives” in with the massive majority of Trumpists isn’t a good way to convince them to change their priorities. It happens. Do you think pointing out just how much bad stuff these “good conservatives” are willing to put up with and just how far that goalpost has moved under this administration, would help at all? Do you have any solution to give? What would have to happen for you to wave the white flag on the Republican party? Just how far does this administration have to go for you to finally abandon its enablers? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/365 "2018-10-04T14:04:08Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > What do people see in the left that is worse than Trump? Why are you asking me what someone else sees? Ask them. Maybe one of the “better conservatives” that supposedly exist can tell us all something that isn’t complete bullshit. Understand, this is the party that went fucking nuts over Benghazi and Obama’s Birth Certificate, and Voter Fraud, but can’t summon up interest in the goddamn Russians trying to influence our election. I’m not holding my breath for a competent argument that the left is worse than Trump. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/366 "2018-10-04T14:30:47Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I think there is probably a lot of truth in that. Trump certainly does appeal to those seeking a charismatic authoritative leader. > > However, that doesn’t exactly answer my question. To go back to my metaphor about the guy that can’t get a date, what you have is said is something like the guy saying ‘The jocks seem to get dates’ > > The question I think the left should be asking itself is ‘a lot of people out there must know how incredibly awful Trump is. A lot of those people must be disgusted with the pandering to white spuremacists that seem to have found a home in the radical right. Why aren’t those people on our side? As awful as it is, why do they prefer it to us?’ Seems that you like the replies the reasons they give, here is one from an important group in favor of Trump: > **[For This Christian N.C. Man, Candidates' 'Morality Issues' Give Pause](https://www.npr.org/2016/10/13/497531552/for-this-christian-n-c-man-candidates-morality-issues-give-pause)** > > Dan Meyer has a strong faith and believes the country must return to biblical principles. For him, the 2016 election presents "a tough, tough choice." > [@](#): > > Paramount for him, he says, is preserving the freedom for him, his children and his grandchildren to express and practice their Christian faith in the United States without government interference. Toward that end, he wants the next president to appoint more conservative justices to the Supreme Court, something Trump has promised to do. > > In his Bible-study group, Meyer stops short of discussing presidential politics, but he drops hints. “You know,” he told his students in his recent class,\*\* “the Old Testament is full of situations where God used even evil men to accomplish his will.”\*\* As I have noticed from your subsequent replies, you are blaming the “victims” of today (the ones “shedding tears”) for the acts of the demagogues of today. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/367 "2018-10-04T14:52:14Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Decent people don’t see a thread in which women are talking about their experiences with sexual assault and enter the thread make a joke about a pussy grabber Halloween costume. Decent people don’t go to a rally where the president mocks a woman who recounted her sexual assault and laugh and cheer. Decent people don’t endorse a man who brags about committing sexual assault. Decent people don’t vote for a man who mimics and mocks a reporter’s disability. It’s that simple, decent people don’t do those things. > > People thing that evil is a guy in a black hat twirling his mustache, it’s not. It’s weak people who let their fear and ignorance dominate them. It’s weak people caught up in a mob chanting lock her up! Bad people are weak people who do nothing to overcome their weakness, who look for easy answers to complex questions and are waiting to be told who to blame. > > Weak people want a safe space for their ugly thoughts. They want to be thought of as good people even though they do bad things. They want to have a special suspension for their own good, but don’t want to have any consequences for their actions. Their weak and deep down they know it. > > The problem is they think that deep down everyone is as weak as they are. That’s why bigots always think that everyone is secretly as racist as they are. They think everyone is as afraid of black people as they are. They think everyone is as afraid of women as they are, they think everyone is as scared of being turned gay as they are. They’re weak and it makes them feel better if everyone else is just as weak and afraid as they are. > > It’s why they use terms like virtue signaling and social justice warrior. They can’t conceive of people just trying hard to be good people so they assume that those people are only pretending to try to be good, but deep down they are as weak as the Trumpists. Or people vote for a clown they think will promote their long term desires? That’s one of the unintended consequences of using the courts to push an agenda. The courts become the prize. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/368 "2018-10-04T14:53:59Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Or people vote for a clown they think will promote their long term desires? That’s one of the unintended consequences of using the courts to push an agenda. The courts become the prize. Besides guns or abortion, what benefits do you feel will come from a Conservative court? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/369 "2018-10-04T14:55:30Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I think there is probably a lot of truth in that. Trump certainly does appeal to those seeking a charismatic authoritative leader. > > However, that doesn’t exactly answer my question. To go back to my metaphor about the guy that can’t get a date, what you have is said is something like the guy saying ‘The jocks seem to get dates’ > > The question I think the left should be asking itself is ‘a lot of people out there must know how incredibly awful Trump is. A lot of those people must be disgusted with the pandering to white spuremacists that seem to have found a home in the radical right. Why aren’t those people on our side? As awful as it is, why do they prefer it to us?’ I agree with a lot of what you are saying: when you point your finger at someone else, there’s three fingers pointing back at yourself (I can’t believe I just wrote that). But it is hard to judge what best to do in the passions of the moment. What would you say that the opponents of Joseph McCarthy should have done when he was lying his ass off to advance his political career? After all, he had a huge amount of sway with the public until his lies caught up with him. We remember the most effective moment of standing up to McCarthy: “Have you no sense of decency, at long last?” Do you suppose that McCarthy’s victims should have considered how standing up to a bully would make McCarthy’s supporters feeeeeeeeel about themselves, and instead take a different tack? Maybe those wrongly accused of being communists, or those stood against those awful tactics, should have treaded much more lightly, out of concern that they would offend those voters who loved McCarthy’s theatrics? And maybe those victims of political oppression should have taken a closer look at themselves, to see why powerful political forces decided to make them a scapegoat? Well, I think when we look at that lesson of history most of us would judge that it is better to take on a vile bully and his supporters than to re-mold themselves into their likeness – or even worse, give up on issues like civil rights and basic justice just to placate those who cannot be placated. I don’t bring up McCarthy as a boogeyman, or an American version of the Godwin argument. I bring it up because Trump has literally taken a page from the same playbook, right down to the disgusting Roger Stone as being a senior adviser. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/370 "2018-10-04T14:56:38Z")
We are well past the point where any benefit to conservatives appointed to the courts can be justified. Let’s put aside that I think that their agenda for the courts is about controlling women’s sexuality, they are enthusiastically endorsing a white nationalist who openly and brazenly undermines our democratic norms and who is clearly corrupt. Decent people would demand that his outrageous behavior be investigated, curtailed and punished. Decent people simply do not put up with this. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/371 "2018-10-04T15:09:34Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Yeah, that Kavanaugh was a great pick, wasn’t he? > > “I LIKE BEER! I DRINK BEER! THE CLINTONS ARE HUNTING ME AND MY FAMILY! IF YOU DON’T CONFIRM ME IT’S BECAUSE OF A MASSIVE CONSPIRACY! ‘BOOFING’ IS JUST FARTING AND ‘THE DEVIL’S TRIANGLE’ IS A DRINKING GAME! I WAS A VIRGIN UNTIL I WAS TWENTY-FIVE SO I COULDN’T HAVE RAPED ANYONE! LOOK AT MY CALENDARS! LOOK AT THEM!” > > Stranger Well, you got a point. Kavanaugh seems to lack the temperament and honesty and self control I’d like a Supreme Court justice to have. That doesn’t mean that at the time of the presidential election that the Supreme Court was not a valid reason to vote for Trump. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/372 "2018-10-04T15:12:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Besides guns or abortion, what benefits do you feel will come from a Conservative court? Freedom of speech, assembly, and press such as Citizens United. Curtailing the abuse of the regulate interstate commerce clause. Preventing quotas in business or colleges. Ending civil forfeiture. Ok. That one won’t happen. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/373 "2018-10-04T15:23:25Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well, you got a point. Kavanaugh seems to lack the temperament and honesty and self control I’d like a Supreme Court justice to have. That doesn’t mean that at the time of the presidential election that the Supreme Court was not a valid reason to vote for Trump. Maybe, but it arguably was a valid reason to toss out the Republican senators who’d abandoned their duties for partisan reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/374 "2018-10-04T15:24:57Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Freedom of speech, assembly, and press such as Citizens United. Curtailing the abuse of the regulate interstate commerce clause. Preventing quotas in business or colleges. > > Ending civil forfeiture. Ok. That one won’t happen. ☹ Sorry I thought it would be obvious, but what positive things do you think would happen that WOULDN’T happen with a non-Conservative court? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/375 "2018-10-04T15:25:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Maybe, but it arguably was a valid reason to toss out the Republican senators who’d abandoned their duties for partisan reasons. You talking about the Garland issue? I agree that that was shameful behavior. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/376 "2018-10-04T15:26:39Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sorry I thought it would be obvious, but what positive things do you think would happen that WOULDN’T happen with a non-Conservative court? Well what I listed I consider positive. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/377 "2018-10-04T15:28:23Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well what I listed I consider positive. Ok. Which aspects of Freedom of Assembly do you think would benefit from a Conservative court that would not also benefit from a more Liberal court? ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/378 "2018-10-04T15:41:47Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > And, before you pull a **Bricker** , there are many “bad liberals” too. Ones who have no interest in genuine debate, who are so utterly convinced they are right that they’ve moved past questioning their own beliefs, ones who incite violence, ones who want to overthrow the whole of the government, ones who are so judgmental that any chance for gentle persuasion is thrown out the window. Ones who automatically and instantly hate the police and other authority figures. Ones who refuse to take showers despite repeated requests from concerned roommates (that one might have been a bit personal to me). You’re not describing liberals, you’re describing Anarchists you dumb fuck. As the boards resident anarchist, I’ll own all the descriptions you’ve listed, except for the not showering part, because while I would incite violence to implement political change, I’m not a complete savage. This is just a sad and transparent smear attempt to turn the left wing into a boogeyman to justify your pathetic tribalism and fear. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/379 "2018-10-04T15:45:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Besides guns or abortion, what benefits do you feel will come from a Conservative court? Borders? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/380 "2018-10-04T15:47:44Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Borders? Got those already. Did you mean walls? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208.md?page=20)