# Better Conservatives? Where?! (A response to Coffeecat) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 30, 2018, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208 "2018-09-30T08:43:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/381 "2018-10-04T15:47:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well, you got a point. Kavanaugh seems to lack the temperament and honesty and self control I’d like a Supreme Court justice to have. That doesn’t mean that at the time of the presidential election that the Supreme Court was not a valid reason to vote for Trump. Any one of the candidates for the Republican primary would have nominated a conservative justice for an opening on the Supreme Court. And most, if not all, would have done a better job of selecting and vetting a suitable candidate even if it was a sure thing because of the Republican majority in the Senate. Trump picked Kavanaugh because Kavanaugh dissented on the decision to let an pregnant teenage immigrant access to abortion, which was part of the larger attack on undocumented immigrants, and because Kavanaugh is a rabid anti-Clinton who worked on the Starr investigation. And oh, by the way, remember “drain the swamp”? Kavanaugh is so swampy he probably has webbed feet. He has spent his entire career in and around D.C. with the exception of a few years spent at Kirkland & Ellis, working on both the Starr report and for the George W. Bush administration. He’s a Washington insider through and through, and probably has to produce a passport to go outside the beltway. Getting a conservative justice was not a reason to vote for Trump in the primary election, and although Gorsuch was a credible choice as a conservative-leaning judge with good credentials and a reputation for considering legal nuance (sometimes to a fault), Kavanaugh’s record is a blatantly partisan even before we get into his temperament, teenage and college behavior he denied under oath, and sexual assault allegations. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/382 "2018-10-04T15:54:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Got those already. > Did you mean walls? No, I meant borders; I don’t see a need for a wall — I’m not a _Trump_ voter, after all; that’s just crazy talk — just, y’know, enforcement. Vigorous enforcement, and no love for the idea of open borders, or for the idea of amnesty, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/383 "2018-10-04T15:55:25Z")
The Supreme Court is responsible for enforcement of border laws? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/384 "2018-10-04T16:00:02Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Ok. Which aspects of Freedom of Assembly do you think would benefit from a Conservative court that would not also benefit from a more Liberal court? The ability for corporations and other groups to spend money as they wish. Including the creation of content that has a clear political purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/385 "2018-10-04T16:01:42Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You talking about the Garland issue? I agree that that was shameful behavior. Well, if we’re gonna go looking for Better Conservatives, we can at least cross Congress off the search grid. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/386 "2018-10-04T16:01:59Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The ability for corporations and other groups to spend money as they wish. Including the creation of content that has a clear political purpose. How the fuck is that a benefit to anyone but corporations and the billionaire investors who control them? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/387 "2018-10-04T16:02:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > The Supreme Court is responsible for enforcement of border laws? Near as I can tell, the Supreme Court can rule on the rights of folks who are here illegally; and on whether the White House can put this or that travel ban into effect; and, presumably, on whatever else they conclude they can weigh in on. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/388 "2018-10-04T16:02:10Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Any one of the candidates for the Republican primary would have nominated a conservative justice for an opening on the Supreme Court. And most, if not all, would have done a better job of selecting and vetting a suitable candidate even if it was a sure thing because of the Republican majority in the Senate. Trump picked Kavanaugh because Kavanaugh dissented on the decision to let an pregnant teenage immigrant access to abortion, which was part of the larger attack on undocumented immigrants, and because Kavanaugh is a rabid anti-Clinton who worked on the Starr investigation. > > And oh, by the way, remember “drain the swamp”? Kavanaugh is so swampy he probably has webbed feet. He has spent his entire career in and around D.C. with the exception of a few years spent at Kirkland & Ellis, working on both the Starr report and for the George W. Bush administration. He’s a Washington insider through and through, and probably has to produce a passport to go outside the beltway. > > Getting a conservative justice was not a reason to vote for Trump in the primary election, and although Gorsuch was a credible choice as a conservative-leaning judge with good credentials and a reputation for considering legal nuance (sometimes to a fault), Kavanaugh’s record is a blatantly partisan even before we get into his temperament, teenage and college behavior he denied under oath, and sexual assault allegations. > > Stranger Hmm. Voting for Trump in the primaries? Yeah, that’s a harder sell. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/389 "2018-10-04T16:02:16Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The ability for corporations and other groups to spend money as they wish. Including the creation of content that has a clear political purpose. Don’t they already have that ability? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/390 "2018-10-04T16:07:02Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Don’t they already have that ability? There are still a few niggling restraints left even after _Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission_, such as that sponsors have to public disclose their identities instead of anonymously hiding behind 527 groups and shell foundations. I’m sure the Kochs and others would like to delete that annoyance from the law. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/391 "2018-10-04T16:09:17Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > You’re not describing liberals, you’re describing Anarchists you dumb fuck. I was using the definition of liberal that a conservative would use. Not sure why you want to be an asshole about it. > [@Crazy Canuck](#): > > This is just a sad and transparent smear attempt to turn the left wing into a boogeyman to justify your pathetic tribalism and fear. Holy Jesus on a pogo stick you are amazingly fucking stupid. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re just another reactionary asshole who gets his rocks off being righteously angry and that you didn’t actually read any of my posts in this thread. Fucking idiot. But thanks for proving my point. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/392 "2018-10-04T16:11:29Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > How the fuck is that a benefit to anyone but corporations and the billionaire investors who control them? > > Stranger It further limits, properly according to the Constitution, the power of the government with regards to restricting freedom of expression. Allowing the government to label content political and then regulate it’s production or distribution is contrary to the charter that formed the government. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/393 "2018-10-04T16:15:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It further limits, properly according to the Constitution, the power of the government with regards to restricting freedom of expression. Allowing the government to label content political and then regulate it’s production or distribution is contrary to the charter that formed the government. Freedom of expression is a right of natural persons. Corporations were not, despite _Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Co._ and other modern interpretations, ever intended to be considered natural people with human rights by the original authors of the Bill of Rights, and billionaire donors hiding in anonymity of a 527 is the opposite of transparency and “draining the swamp”. I think what you really mean is that you don’t give a fuck about corruption and oligarchy as long as it is conservatives spending the money and influencing the vote without being held accountable for the truthfulness of their claims. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/394 "2018-10-04T16:22:17Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Freedom of expression is a right of natural persons. Corporations were not, despite _Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Co._ and other modern interpretations, ever intended to be considered natural people with human rights by the original authors of the Bill of Rights, and billionaire donors hiding in anonymity of a 527 is the opposite of transparency and “draining the swamp”. I think what you really mean is that you don’t give a fuck about corruption and oligarchy as long as it is conservatives spending the money and influencing the vote without being held accountable for the truthfulness of their claims. > > Stranger Freedom of assembly? Why can’t people choose to form a group called a corporation? People can form religions, unions, clubs, etc. and spend money. And why ask people what they think if you are going to tell them what they \*really \* think? My main motivation is division and constraint of powerful institutions. The government is the most powerful and needs the most oversight. Sorry that the constitution is an inconvenience. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/395 "2018-10-04T16:25:25Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Freedom of assembly? Why can’t people choose to form a group called a corporation? People can form religions, unions, clubs, etc. and spend money. > > And why ask people what they think if you are going to tell them what they \*really \* think? My main motivation is division and constraint of powerful institutions. The government is the most powerful and needs the most oversight. Sorry that the constitution is an inconvenience. Are you actually this stupid that you can make so many self-contradictory statements in seven sentences, or are you being just that disingenuous? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/396 "2018-10-04T16:40:58Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Are you actually this stupid that you can make so many self-contradictory statements in seven sentences, or are you being just that disingenuous? > > Stranger Insult away. It’s not productive but when has that stopped you? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/397 "2018-10-04T16:50:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Insult away. It’s not productive but when has that stopped you? ”Oh, poor me! I just posted a rambling, incoherent nonsense rationale in **The Pit** and somebody called me stupid.” Stranger ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/398 "2018-10-04T17:00:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The ability for corporations and other groups to spend money as they wish. Including the creation of content that has a clear political purpose. Set aside for just a moment, please, the question of whether you think corporations have the moral right or “natural” right or legal right to spend money to influence elections. Then, if you can do that, address this question: _ **Does the ability of corporations and the super-rich to influence elections increase or decrease the chance that elections will lead to good policies for the general public?** _ ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/399 "2018-10-04T17:05:10Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Freedom of assembly? Why can’t people choose to form a group called a corporation? People can form religions, unions, clubs, etc. and spend money. It seems to me that there are already limits on corporations and what they can say, like in terms of food labeling and such. Do you similarly disagree with those limitations? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/400 "2018-10-04T17:14:01Z")
Sorry, Octopus, but you really do come across like you don’t know what you are talking about. Look at this, from today: [MSN](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/san-francisco-judge-suspends-trump-administrations-decision-to-end-protected-status-for-hundreds-of-thousands-of-immigrants/ar-BBNTRPo) This move against immigrants was blocked because it was approached with a political agenda, ignored facts and was motivated by racism. Over and over, the courts block Trump’s initiatives because they are “arbitrary and capricious.” If you want limited government, that is one appropriate line to draw. The whole concept of the “conservative judge” is someone who won’t make these distinctions. Someone who “ignores facts.” Someone who will adjudicate cases in favor of a political agenda by playing dumb to the standards of their profession. In a word, corrupt. We don’t need judges who cast a blind eye to “arbitrary and capricious” which is what the while conservative agenda has become and why conservatives have such a hard time coming up with coherent explanations for their positions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208.md?page=21)