# Better Conservatives? Where?! (A response to Coffeecat) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 30, 2018, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208 "2018-09-30T08:43:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/481 "2018-10-05T16:22:50Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Ignorance and intolerance. > > What they perceive as being bad - saving the environment, enacting laws so that they have clean water to drink, protecting the food we eat, laws that promote fair labor standards, promoting a more inclusive society in spite of visible differences - aren’t in reality bad. They are perceived as threats by an ethnic majority that has a certain archetypal view of what America should look like. If the support for Trump and today’s GOP included support among Latinos, African Americans, and other minorities, you might have a point, but support for Trumpism and the GOP is overwhelmingly white. And, really, THIS. It’s not enough to not actually be a white supremacist, religious fanatic, abusive boss, or polluter; you should be able to realize that if your logic is leading you to the same places their logic is leading them to, something is very wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/482 "2018-10-05T16:28:44Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Few issues there. > > 1. Who says half the people in the US think Trump is preferable to the left? If we look at the election 3/4 of US adults did not vote for him: > > [Who are the three-quarters of adult Americans who didn't vote for Trump? | US elections 2016 | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/18/american-non-voters-election-donald-trump) > > So I think you’ve jumped into a very contentious position there. Hell, it’s a given that Clinton got more votes than Trump did: > > [Presidential Election Results 2016](https://edition.cnn.com/election/2016/results/president) > > And that’s before you consider that since then, Trump’s popularity has dropped a fair bit. So really, I think that claim is an exaggeration. > > 1. “Are they all bad and stupid or do they see something even worse on the left (hint, it’s the latter)” > > Few issues with that too. First, you’re giving a false dichotomy. A number of them might well be bad and stupid and see something wrong with the left. A number of them might have been convinced by the whole “lock her up” spiel, or been susceptible to some of the undeniable social media exploitation Russia engaged in. A number of them might view Trump’s financial policies as likely to benefit them. > > Oh, and good to see you again, it’s been years. Oh yeah, meant to comment on that. If you think “half the country” prefers Trump, you’re not looking at the same polls I am. Mine say that52% of the country disapproves of him as against only 42% approval, and that “the left” is highly likely to win the midterm elections by a wide margin. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/483 "2018-10-05T16:34:45Z")
I would like to correct my statement above that most GOP voters are not capable of informed, rational thought. Rather, I would say that they are people who have not had the opportunity or inclination to apply that capacity to the political arena, and have absorbed the prevailing attitudes in their social milieu by default. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/484 "2018-10-05T16:42:15Z")
OK, was going to stop spamming this thread for a while but just saw this and couldn’t resist: > [@538.com](#): > > 63 percent of Americans say wedding-related businesses should be required to provide the same services to same-sex couples that they provide to other couples, according to a Harris Poll conducted for Out & Equal Workplace Advocates. If that’s the hill you’d like your party to die on, be my guest. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/485 "2018-10-05T16:42:48Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Oh yeah, meant to comment on that. If you think “half the country” prefers Trump, you’re not looking at the same polls I am. Mine say that52% of the country disapproves of him as against only 42% approval, and that “the left” is highly likely to win the midterm elections by a wide margin. The current SCOTUS nomination battle has shifted the tide in favor of Republican candidates in the upcoming midterms. [Kavanaugh saga a surprising bonus for Republicans](https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/conservatives-are-coming-home-how-the-kavanaugh-allegations-have-upended-the-us-midterms-20181005-p507ul.html) > [@](#): > > A new NPR/Marist College poll also found that the Democrats’ enthusiasm advantage had disappeared. In July, there was a 10-point gap between the number of Democrats and Republicans who said the November elections were “very important”. That is now down to 2 points, a statistical tie. > > Asked why the issue has aroused such passions on the right, the Committee for Justice’s Levey says: “People see this as politically-motivated and unfair. If a 36-year-old uncorroborated claim can bring Kavanaugh down, this could happen to anyone. It shows how far Democrats are willing to go in the politics of personal destruction.” ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/486 "2018-10-05T16:50:39Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I am spending an awful lot of effort supporting the notions that: > > 1. Money doesn’t care about race > 2. Government regulation can be good and bad > > It feels like I am having to drag you kicking and screaming to those conclusions. Not at all. If that was the entirety of your point, I never would have bothered with it. Maybe a throw away about how you can’t separate money and capitalism from societal views, but it wouldn’t have been worth it. But that’s not precisely what you said and meant. At least in your first few posts. I’ve explained numerous times, using your very own words and explaining how I interpreted, and still interpret them. If the entirety of your meaning from our posting is those two things, great. I’m completely flummoxed why you said what you did if that’s what you meant, but hey, there you go. > [@Scylla](#): > > I disagree with you about the “deep ness” of this subject. You and I seem to be stuck in the basic mechanics of markets and capitalism, and that it is difficult and dangerous to try to write magical regulations that suddenly fix everything without causing more damage than they fix. I’m not stuck. I know how capitalism works, and how the government isn’t always the best solution. Got it. But, again, that’s not what I took away from your posts. You consistently bemoaned the actions against the bigoted cake maker, and indicated, quite clearly I thought, that the government shouldn’t be involved and that the market would eventually weed his kind out. You seemed to bolster that thought by pointing out that Jim Crow laws were “targeted” at businesses, as if the laws were there to stop nice white folks from selling to black people and thus interfering with the invisible hand of capitalism. If you are now telling me that wasn’t your point, and instead you were just pointing out capitalism and governmental intervention can be both good and bad… Great. Extremely stupid point that is not really in contention, but hey, you do you. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/487 "2018-10-05T16:53:49Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > > [@Monty](#): > > > > Trump’s own asinine commentary after Charlottesville proved what he is, showed his true color. > > He sided with the fucking Nazis. Of course he did. As I told my mother before she passed, I believe Trump is actually a Nazi. He’s certainly a white supremacist, a misogynist, and a bigot. Oh, I used the singular, _color_, as opposed to the plural, _colors_, for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/488 "2018-10-05T17:11:04Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Cheese, Kimstu: > I’m here to argue big ideas. I go along on nitpicks and digressions because I don’t wish to be one who avoids getting down to brass tacks. > > However, we seem to have left the realm of big ideas, and you now seem to focus on details of my yearbook (making a throwaway one line attempt to coin a term fro modern evident which will doubtless result in another lengthy digression) > > So, I find the choice of battleground mildly humorous. Perhaps this means that I am insensitive, privileged person who has proven his inability to truly appreciate the struggle, and who demeans those who are discriminated against, this revealing his true colors as gay hating racist who is part of the problem and in need of re-education by finer minds. Or wherever you are going with this. > > Or, I could just plead guilty and admi that I failed to recognize the deep gravitas of cake eating, bus riding, and who left up the toilet seat, while climbing up on my cross. > > Got some nails. > > * * * > > The part that really interests me though, and the part to which I feel I never really got a serious answer is to my original question: > > If you believe that there are reasonable and intelligent conservatives out there, who are fully aware of the odious failings of Trumpism, who still feel obligated to side with the Republicans and oppose the left, why, in order that they would agree with, do you think they are doing so? > > What I am asking is really very simple. Can you faithfully articulate the oppositions viewpoint? > > I ask this because I see how Republicans are characterized as morally bankrupt racists, whose stupidity is only exceeded by their greed, intellectual dishonesty, and willingness to destroy the environment, and hatred of women, blah blah blah, and I wonder if that’s rhetoric or literal gospel belief. I bring up the metaphor of the guy who can’t get dates who blames the women to open up the possibility some posdibility’s For thought. > > We are at a time right now where the President of the Republican Party is so horrible, it’s really not up for debate. Given that this is so readily apparent, why do half the people in the country still find it preferable to what the left is offering? > > Are they all bad and stupid or do they see something even worse on the left (hint, it’s the latter) > > What is it? The actual conservatives and Republicans I know who don’t support Trump but who still support the party and conservatism (whatever that means to each individual…it varies as to the type of conservative) definitely do so for what you are getting at…regardless of the flaws that are apparent in the party and conservatism, they see the Democrats and definitely the left as worse alternatives. And they feel that the left and progressives are basically in control of the Democrats, or will be shortly after the Democratic civil wars are over. It’s unclear to me if they have valid concerns or if this is just their fear talking, but they definitely have them. It’s something often overlooked on this board, which leans left…that there are people who really are afraid of or who reject a lot of what the left wing thinks of as rock solid truths. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/489 "2018-10-05T17:15:24Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > The current SCOTUS nomination battle has shifted the tide in favor of Republican candidates in the upcoming midterms. [Kavanaugh saga a surprising bonus for Republicans](https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/conservatives-are-coming-home-how-the-kavanaugh-allegations-have-upended-the-us-midterms-20181005-p507ul.html) Your linked article is a bunch of right-wing hacks repeating talking points and a few cherry-picked polls. [On average,](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/congress-generic-ballot-polls/?ex_cid=rrpromo) the polls have shown a consistent 8-10 point advantage for Democrats since last spring, It appears that it has fallen from 9.1% a couple weeks ago all the way to 8.7% today. By that standard, the “tide has turned” innumerable times in favor of both sides, but it never seems to get out of that 8-10% range by much or for long. In addition, polls show a plurality of Americans don’t want Kavanaugh confirmed and are more likely to vote against than for a candidate who supports him. So it seems unlikely to attribute even this trivial shift toward the Republicans to the SCOTUS hearings. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/490 "2018-10-05T17:28:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That doesn’t change the fact that a significant amount of accusations are provably false I wouldn’t say 2% is a significant amount. And that’s why I don’t’ worry about it. And in the small chance that my son is falsely accused, there’s an even SMALLER chance that he will get in trouble or have his life ruined. Which is why I don’t worry about it. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/491 "2018-10-05T17:31:50Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The actual conservatives and Republicans I know who don’t support Trump but who still support the party and conservatism (whatever that means to each individual…it varies as to the type of conservative) definitely do so for what you are getting at…regardless of the flaws that are apparent in the party and conservatism, they see the Democrats and definitely the left as worse alternatives. And they feel that the left and progressives are basically in control of the Democrats, or will be shortly after the Democratic civil wars are over. It’s unclear to me if they have valid concerns or if this is just their fear talking, but they definitely have them. It’s something often overlooked on this board, which leans left…that there are people who really are afraid of or who reject a lot of what the left wing thinks of as rock solid truths. Well, yeah. I and millions of other people are afraid of and reject what they think of as rock solid truths. So? If no one rejected these “truths”, they wouldn’t be, like, politically controversial. I mean, I get the argument that leftists unfairly attribute nefarious motives to those who disagree with us, but you’re saying we’re _unaware of their existence_?😕 I mean, we did notice the last election result and all. This is the first time I’ve encountered this idea that “the left” will soon control the Democrats after the “civil war”. Wouldn’t people who fear this have been especially eager to support Hillary Clinton in order to avoid giving oxygen to the Sanders crowd? And yet somehow I doubt they were. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/492 "2018-10-05T17:33:16Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Thing Fish: > > I’m not a Chinese immigrant Harumph. Yet another supported factual assertion from a conservative. Why am I supposed to take your word on it?1? ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/493 "2018-10-05T17:38:13Z")
Also to XT, above: Your whole post is extremely vague. Can you give examples of things these people you know fear “the left” will do once in power, so we can evaluate whether those fears are realistic or justified? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/494 "2018-10-05T17:44:51Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Also to XT, above: > Your whole post is extremely vague. Can you give examples of things these people you know fear “the left” will do once in power, so we can evaluate whether those fears are realistic or justified? The ones I’ve talked with indicate that, if the Democrats come into power they will: 1. Increase taxes. 2. Put Justices on the Supreme Court who will make stuff up and not be good, neutral judges like Republican judges are. 3. Restrict Gun rights. 4. Waste more governmental money giving handouts to lazy people in order to gain votes. 5. Expand abortion rights. Those are the big 5 I hear when talking to rational conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/495 "2018-10-05T17:50:02Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Oh yeah, meant to comment on that. If you think “half the country” prefers Trump, you’re not looking at the same polls I am. Mine say that52% of the country disapproves of him as against only 42% approval, and that “the left” is highly likely to win the midterm elections by a wide margin. The half number wasn’t “people that prefer Trump”, it was Republicans ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/496 "2018-10-05T17:55:05Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > The ones I’ve talked with indicate that, if the Democrats come into power they will: > > 1. Increase taxes. > 2. Put Justices on the Supreme Court who will make stuff up and not be good, neutral judges like Republican judges are. > 3. Restrict Gun rights. > 4. Waste more governmental money giving handouts to lazy people in order to gain votes. > 5. Expand abortion rights. > Those are the big 5 I hear when talking to rational conservatives. I would say you are pretty close. I’d add one thing: People of both stripes are passionate about certain issues. On these issues they will not bend. Those are the reasons that most Republicans are Republican and Democrats are Democrats If those passionate issues cannot be found to have any middle ground then you get to where we are now, with EVERYTHING being a political battle. Even in my post I listed 6 or 7 issues, the top 3 being items I am passionate about and the others that while I agree with some of the Democratic platform would never fall in line with my other, more important to me, passionately held issues. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/497 "2018-10-05T17:59:35Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > The ones I’ve talked with indicate that, if the Democrats come into power they will: > > 1. Increase taxes. > 2. Put Justices on the Supreme Court who will make stuff up and not be good, neutral judges like Republican judges are. > 3. Restrict Gun rights. > 4. Waste more governmental money giving handouts to lazy people in order to gain votes. > 5. Expand abortion rights. > Those are the big 5 I hear when talking to rational conservatives. Pretty much this. Plus I’d add more entitlements like ‘free’ healthcare, ‘free’ education/college and the like. It varies with what type of conservative we are talking about. Social conservatives worry about gay marriage/gay rights and activist judges forcing through more and more equality wrt that stuff. Fiscal conservatives worry about expansion of government entitlements and spending, increased taxes on the wealthy and the like. Other types of conservatives worry about the left wing taking the US socialist, or banning all guns or myriad other things along those lines. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/498 "2018-10-05T18:01:31Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Well, yeah. I and millions of other people are afraid of and reject what they think of as rock solid truths. So? If no one rejected these “truths”, they wouldn’t be, like, politically controversial. I mean, I get the argument that leftists unfairly attribute nefarious motives to those who disagree with us, but you’re saying we’re _unaware of their existence_?😕 I mean, we did notice the last election result and all. > > This is the first time I’ve encountered this idea that “the left” will soon control the Democrats after the “civil war”. Wouldn’t people who fear this have been especially eager to support Hillary Clinton in order to avoid giving oxygen to the Sanders crowd? And yet somehow I doubt they were. You haven’t heard anything about the battle between progressives and establishment in the Democratic party? I hear about it endlessly in some of the circles I run in. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/499 "2018-10-05T18:01:33Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > COr, I could just plead guilty and admi that I failed to recognize the deep gravitas of cake eating, bus riding, and who left up the toilet seat, while climbing up on my cross. This is why: > [@](#): > > Republicans are characterized as morally bankrupt racists And bigots, let’s not forget bigots. Your stance is “what’s the big deal about moving to the back of the bus.” You don’t understand why, and I can’t make you understand why, because it’s about basic human decency, not riding a fucking bus. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/500 "2018-10-05T18:18:16Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > The ones I’ve talked with indicate that, if the Democrats come into power they will: > > 1. Increase taxes. > 2. Put Justices on the Supreme Court who will make stuff up and not be good, neutral judges like Republican judges are. > 3. Restrict Gun rights. > 4. Waste more governmental money giving handouts to lazy people in order to gain votes. > 5. Expand abortion rights. > Those are the big 5 I hear when talking to rational conservatives. OK, well: 1. Isn’t inherently good or bad, it depends on how wisely the taxes are spent. 2. :rolleyes: 3. Well, yeah, if any restriction of gun rights whatsoever (beyond the status quo) is completely unacceptable to you, then there you go. But what I typically hear isn’t that, it’s that Democrats want to “ban guns”, and quite commonly that the things Democrats actually _do_ want to do are only steps in their nefarious secret plan to ban guns. So yeah, if you assume that your opponents have nefarious secret plans which contradict their expressed beliefs, you can justify pretty much anything. 4. :rolleyes: 5. This is a good thing. So, three reasons which are just obvious BS and two issues which IMO shouldn’t be deal-breakers for reasonable people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208.md?page=26)