# Better Conservatives? Where?! (A response to Coffeecat) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 30, 2018, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208 "2018-09-30T08:43:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/701 "2018-10-11T18:17:10Z")
Andros: In any other pit thread discussion it would not detract. In this particular specific one, I think it might. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/702 "2018-10-11T18:18:40Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > Is that like a duck call? šŸ˜ƒ If so, itā€™s efficacy is dubious. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/703 "2018-10-11T18:31:06Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > **iandyii** > > So hereā€™s a question, earlier in the thread Simone suggested that I was a victim of the shouting majority or some such. > > I believe I objected to that comparison because I thought it referenced you, and I thought we were having an interesting discussion. > > I note (Iā€™m not suggesting you do anything, or I need the help,). That your defensive instincts seem selective, at least in this thread. > > I think there is a lot of what you might characterize as idiocy or hatred directed at me, in this thread. > > Is it that I deserve it (maybe I do)? > > Is it that you think Iā€™m doing fine and no defense necessary? > > Is it that I am part of a privileged oppressive class and deserve a taste of my own medicine? > > Is it that iā€™m A man? > > I think some of the attacks here have been dehumanizing by your standard, but it doesnā€™t look like youā€™ve chosen to address them. > > Itā€™s hard to take criticism seriously when it seems to be applied so selectively. > > So far I have collected ā€œbigot, worse than bigot, mysoginist, coward, trashā€ > > So, if you are looking to call out bad behavior, you donā€™t need to go back 6 years. I wasnā€™t looking to call out vulgarity or insults in general ā€“ those are ubiquitous in the Pit. I called out a dehumanizing and misogynistic slur because I think those reflect a particularly negative aspect of our society and culture ā€“ one which I think itā€™s criticial we as a society work on improving. It really has stuck in my head for the last 6 years, for whatever reason. Iā€™ve also called out such slurs used against conservative women. And while I appreciate the friendly and courteous discussion weā€™ve been having, I still think your description of Fluke was sexist, just as calling an outspoken black activist a racial slur would be racist. Different tones of discussion ā€œworkā€ in different circumstances, and with different people. It seemed to me during our conversation that you were making a real effort to explain your views, which IMO deserved a real effort on my part in explaining mine. I still appreciate it, even as I think that you might have some subconscious biases about womenā€™s behavior that youā€™re either unaware of, or unaware that they might be harmful or bigoted. I donā€™t think you ā€œdeserveā€ being called ā€œtrashā€ (Iā€™ll single that insult out in particular because itā€™s the one IMO that might edge across the line into dehumanizing, even though I donā€™t think it has any significant historical baggage attached like various other misogynistic and racial slurs that weā€™ve been discussing). At the same time, Iā€™ve never been called a slut or a similar misogynistic slur ā€“ many or most women that I know have been. So I wouldnā€™t feel comfortable judging someone for rhetorically lashing out at your continued defense or perhaps minimization of your usage of that slur. I recognize that Iā€™m more likely to notice bigoted and dehumanizing language coming from those politically on the ā€œother sideā€ than on my side. I also generally donā€™t jump into other peopleā€™s arguments unless I feel particularly strongly and confidently about somethingā€¦ I feel very strongly and confidently that itā€™s wrong to use misogynistic and racial slurs; I feel much less strongly and confidently about when itā€™s wrong to use the insults and negative descriptors used against you, which I think fall into a different category. All in all, an awful lot of words about a flippant use of a slur, criticism of that usage, and insults directed at you for your usage and explanation. But thatā€™s one of the things the Dope is for. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/704 "2018-10-11T20:15:39Z")
Thatā€™s a really good answer, and it helps to clarify your position. Iā€™m typically more concerned about individuals than groups, since you canā€™t really hurt a group since itā€™s not a rational entity. You can only hurt the individual members of that group. Thatā€™s typically where I stand, up until and unless I sense that there is actual targeting going on, where Member(s) of an individual group are being targetted not on their own merits but because they are members of a group. So, if an individual insult spills over a little into a group, it is not necessarily an attack on the group. There are a lot of people, crotchety old men, comedians, etc who consider themselves to be refreshingly free of bullshit pc constraints, who look at somebodyā€™s Race, gender, religion, sexuality, literally every feature about them, as nothing more than a handle on which to hang insults, and they may use the most vile and loaded insults casually and without venom. Then too, I saw at the end of the series ā€œgeneration killā€ a documentary with marines talking about marine culture, and the fact that they routinely do the same thing as described above, and say these things to each other all the time because they are ā€œbrothersā€ and this brings them closer. The constant highlighting of their differences desensitizes them to them. I do not subscribe to or fall into either of the above categories. I just donā€™t think itā€™s as big a deal, and am more concerned with intent. The power is in the intent, not in the words. * * * We have beat this dead horse to the point where I think we should stop and consider opening up a hamburger stand. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/705 "2018-10-11T20:31:33Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Or is it that heā€™s having a conversation with you and trying hard to ignore the noise?. This brings up an interesting point. It **is** Different on this board. If you lean Republican, conservative even a little bit, you experience a constant stream of hostility directed at you and your beliefs. It is affecting. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/706 "2018-10-11T21:21:53Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > This brings up an interesting point. It **is** > Different on this board. If you lean Republican, conservative even a little bit, you experience a constant stream of hostility directed at you and your beliefs. > > It is affecting. Well, to be fair, and coming back to the topic of the thread, I have yet to see a republican here who has given me any indication that theyā€™re better than anti-democratic, dishonest scum Iā€™d rather not share a planet, let alone a country with. Youā€™re just about the best of them, and here you are, making the case that because women arenā€™t oppressed any more, you _have_ to call a woman you disagree with a, quote, ā€œbrazen slutā€ because otherwise you wouldnā€™t be taking them seriously. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you? What the fuck is wrong with your entire fucking political movement? Right now, Georgia is disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of (primarily non-white) voters in an attempt to stop a congressional race from being close. Theyā€™re not subtle about it; they have barely the subtlest fucking figleaf of an excuse for the shit theyā€™re pulling. The better conservative responses are arguing that itā€™s not _really_ disenfranchisement, because if 700,000 people are too lazy or stupid to return a direct mail postcard, thatā€™s their fault. The worst ( **Bricker** in particular) are just gloating that itā€™s legal and theyā€™ll probably get away with undermining democracy in Georgia. You guys get abused because youā€™re stupid, dishonest, offensive, and honestly just terrible fucking human beings. Or, at least, the side we see of you is that of a terrible, terrible fucking human being. (Apparently **Clothahump** is a nice guy in person? For the 6 or so years we coexisted on this forum, I never saw a single fucking redeeming quality from that shitbag.) So donā€™t be surprised if we see you basically making the world a worse place for everyone and respond with vitriol. Just be glad weā€™re not jaded enough to do more. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/707 "2018-10-11T21:59:10Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > This brings up an interesting point. It **is** > Different on this board. If you lean Republican, conservative even a little bit, you experience a constant stream of hostility directed at you and your beliefs. > > It is affecting. Youā€™ll live. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/708 "2018-10-11T22:56:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think that you might have some subconscious biases about womenā€™s behavior that youā€™re either unaware of, or unaware that they might be harmful or bigoted. I would guess you would think I have a problem with promiscuity. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/709 "2018-10-11T22:59:17Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/710 "2018-10-11T23:00:52Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I would guess you would think I have a problem with promiscuity. I wouldnā€™t be so specific ā€“ maybe, or maybe the issue is broader. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/711 "2018-10-11T23:28:16Z")
Oddly enough, no conservatives ever responded to my views (which were requested by a conservative poster) on immigration from several pages ago: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There are probably a million different circumstances, and IANAL. But throw out a specific scenario and Iā€™ll do my best. In my understanding, if the Border Patrol sees someone trying to cross illegally, they should detain them. > > I know better what we should not be doing ā€“ if the law allows this kind of thing, then the laws should be changed such that it is disallowed: > > We should not be separating children from their parents due to nonviolent immigration violations. If the parents are to be deported, itā€™s monstrous to deport them separately from their children, barring a few very unusual circumstances, since that leads to a high likelihood of a family broken up forever. We should not be processing children (anyone, really, but children especially) through the immigration court system without full legal representation. We should permanently welcome all Dreamers who have not committed any crimes (aside from crossing a border as children). We should not force local police to prioritize CIS work above good relations with immigrant communities ā€“ otherwise, immigrants may not cooperate with police or even report crimes like rape and child molestation. We should do our best to maintain the American tradition of assimilation and the melting pot, lest we become ghetto-ized with distrustful and separated immigrant communities like exists in parts of Europe. Dearborn, MI is a shining example of the positive contribution of immigration (aside from the most obvious examples like NYC and LA), and an example of how to make a wonderful melting-pot city out of immigrants from very, very different cultures than the US. > > In the long run there is no downside to being a welcoming place for immigrants, in general. That doesnā€™t mean open borders. But it does mean always rejecting anti-immigrant sentiment, and never blaming immigrants for the problems a country is facing. Blaming immigrants is a tried and true political strategy that often works to get people elected, but itā€™s nigh-always factually wrong (and nigh-always leads to significant suffering for innocent people). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2018, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/712 "2018-10-11T23:39:48Z")
Well, Iā€™ll take a shot at an answer to that one. You are mixing up immigration and illegal entry. There is a big difference. Should we be encouraging more immigration? Absolutely. Itā€™s what made this country great, and, frankly, we desperately need immigration to fill many of the technical jobs that are going unfilled with our own population. Immigrants also build new businessesā€¦and, in fact, several of our large mega-corporations were built by immigrants both today and in the past. But if someone is trying to enter the US illegally, yeah, border patrol should detain them because, you know, thatā€™s why we have borders and stuff. Not like the US is the only country that doesnā€™t like folks wandering into their country illegally. Iā€™m no conservative, though perhaps I rate that, but thatā€™s my take. You guys found any better conservatives yet? The discussion has gotten pretty wild and wooly so itā€™s hard to judgeā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/713 "2018-10-12T00:38:37Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Iā€™m no conservative, though perhaps I rate that, but thatā€™s my take. You guys found any better conservatives yet? The discussion has gotten pretty wild and wooly so itā€™s hard to judgeā€¦ Well, Iā€™m undergoing psychoanalysis here, in an attempt to identify and uncover my hidden, non specific biases against women. After I receive extensive re-education at a left wing gulag (they have gulags in Berkely?). It is hoped that I might qualify as a good conservative. Gigobuster says I am the best theyā€™ve got so, I guess itā€™s all riding on me. Itā€™s a lot of pressure, and madmonk is being mean to me which makes me nervous and sad, and Iā€™m afraid that might affect my re-education. How was your day? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/714 "2018-10-12T01:57:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Oddly enough, no conservatives ever responded to my views (which were requested by a conservative poster) on immigration from several pages ago: I donā€™t have a problem with what you said. The only modification Iā€™d add is that I donā€™t think that there is no downside to immigration as a general statement. There are problems that can occur and therefore Iā€™m in favor of limitations on immigration. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/715 "2018-10-12T02:31:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Oddly enough, no conservatives ever responded to my views (which were requested by a conservative poster) on immigration from several pages ago: I requested them because I didnā€™t know what your views _were_. You stated them. In short order, I then noted that I sure liked that answer of yours to my first question before saying ā€œas for the secondā€ when mentioning my own views on the second, which you copy-and-pasted when replying in turn with an _okay-but-what-if_ post. Didnā€™t know thatā€™d strike you as odd. Mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/716 "2018-10-12T02:47:09Z")
Iā€™m not informed enough on immigration to have a rational opinion. Separating parents from kids sounds like a terrible idea. Iā€™ve heard child trafficking being thrown out as a need for verification that they really are their kids, and the reason why there is separation. I have no idea if this is total bullshit or a valid reason. Is anybody really in favor of separating parents from kids? To the extent that it is happening, is it an unfortunate necessity that happens occasionally as part of a process to protect the kids, an example of heartless naziism or what? I donā€™t know enough. The Dream Act as written and described by Wikipedia seems cool. I like that it seems rigidly defined, and requires specific criteria be met that demonstrate value to this country for children that were brought here as minors and so have no responsibility for the illegal nature of their status. If anything it seems slightly more punitive than necessary, making the kids jump through more hoops than necessary. As it stands it seems right for kids 16-18, Iā€™d say it needs less restrictive for kids 12-16, and anybody brought here earlier than that without a conviction should be made a citizen. Iā€™m not sure how you play out chain immigration on this. Iā€™m not as sympathetic to adults who come here illegally as they take the place of and disincent those who follow the rules. As for the attitude you espouse, I agree with it with the proviso that you never say ā€œnever.ā€ I can imagine scenarios where a countryā€™s problems could result from immigration. I beleive France is having some of these now. Again, this is not an area that I have studied or thought about deeply so no jumping up my ass. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/717 "2018-10-12T03:37:42Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Well, to be fair, and coming back to the topic of the thread, I have yet to see a republican here who has given me any indication that theyā€™re better than anti-democratic, dishonest scum Iā€™d rather not share a planet, let alone a country with. When you start to feel this way, itā€™s a bad sign. It means it is time to leave the echo chamber andgo and immerse yourself in the media and message boards of the opposition, and get some perspective. That is **exactly** why I am here again after a protracted absence. Iā€™ve done this before. The epiphany you get is depressing and unwelcome, but true and necessary. You see the flaws of your own ā€˜teamā€™ perfectly reflected in the things you despise most in the opposition. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/718 "2018-10-12T04:45:31Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > When you start to feel this way, itā€™s a bad sign. It means it is time to leave the echo chamber andgo and immerse yourself in the media and message boards of the opposition, and get some perspective. No, it means youā€™re capable of reading and interpreting the news. Republicans donā€™t want to admit to their massive voter suppression campaigns, but theyā€™re really, really obvious and well documented. Anyone who identifies as a Republican today is explicitly endorsing a party that is opposed to democratic ideals like ā€˜citizens should be allowed to vote for leadersā€™. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/719 "2018-10-12T05:04:48Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > When you start to feel this way, itā€™s a bad sign. It means it is time to leave the echo chamber andgo and immerse yourself in the media and message boards of the opposition, and get some perspective. ā€œEcho chamberā€? No, I got this view by listening to people like _you_. And Iā€™ve gone to boards with a larger republican presence. You know what the main difference is? Any rational discussion becomes virtually impossible, buried beneath impenetrable layers of _bullshit_. Conservatives donā€™t come off better - au contraire, they see considerably less checks on their _bullshit_, and so have no problem being _even worse than usual_. At least here we ban the fucking racists. But I have virtually nothing positive to say about almost any conservative here. You included. If there is such a thing as a ā€œgood conservativeā€, well, good job hiding them so well. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208/720 "2018-10-12T05:11:14Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > ā€œEcho chamberā€? No, I got this view by listening to people like _you_. And Iā€™ve gone to boards with a larger republican presence. You know what the main difference is? Any rational discussion becomes virtually impossible, buried beneath impenetrable layers of _bullshit_. Conservatives donā€™t come off better - au contraire, they see considerably less checks on their _bullshit_, and so have no problem being _even worse than usual_. At least here we ban the fucking racists. > > But I have virtually nothing positive to say about almost any conservative here. You included. If there is such a thing as a ā€œgood conservativeā€, well, good job hiding them so well. What?!? And here I was thinking we were e-buds.ā˜¹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-conservatives-where-a-response-to-coffeecat/822208.md?page=37)