# Better school systems, mandatory mil. service...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2001, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933 "2001-07-10T07:13:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Homer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homer)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/1 "2001-07-10T07:13:35Z")
When I was in school, after about fourth grade, I started learning the same stuff every year. History, SAME. English, SAME. So on and so forth. What do we really gain from learning the same stuff over and over? The way I figure it, people who are told the same BS every year don’t have to **know** it, they just have to **remember** it long enough to pass the test. I think that you really only _know_ something when you can extrapolate previously unknown information from information you know. Kids are also uncultured little monsters more and more these days, whether from declining parenting skills, or whatever, that’s not the point. So I’ve been thinking (okay, I was high at the time) and I think I’ve devised a possible better way to do things… Please pick it apart or support it, whatever. This is very rough, just a basic ordering of skill acquiration. I’ll describe methods of determination of skill acquiration after the outline. Pre-school: Learn the alphabet and basic counting systems. Socialization through play-time etc. Kindergarten: Further alphabetic and numerical practice, basic spelling and possibly math. Socialization through play-time, etc., and possibly stories / plays / examples of social interaction. 1st grade: Begin teaching phonetics and intiutive spelling methods, as well as basic speech constructs and aspects of language. Further, more advanced, socialization as exampled above. Possible socialization role-playing for personal examples of social interaction. Higher-order counting, and more advanced math (double-digit addition etc) Physical education should be recess / playtime etc. 2nd grade: Further spelling / language / speech skills, with more complicated math (subtraction, basic negative numbers, etc) Strong emphasis on social interaction and social skills. Teacher-led conversation and examples on how to treat people / deal with other people / respond in social situations / “be nice even if they’re different, treat as you would be” etc. 3rd grade: Begin teaching of science and history, but continue to emphasize english skills and social skills. Introduction of multiplication, etc to math skills. 4th grade: More advanced science and history, including reasons behind historical events and their impact on current events. Math should now be up to a/s/m/d long and short. Things really get fuzzy at about this point, with ordering and relation between skills. I admit this isn’t like, a proposal or anything, so please excuse the lack of polish. ---
**Author:** ![jaimest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/48db29/32.png) [@jaimest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaimest)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/2 "2001-07-10T07:21:05Z")
I don’t understand… I thought you were going to say when and where there is a military draft, students shape up and do better in school, to avoid college. I know in the former Soviet Union, kids knew they had to hustle in school or else do grunt duty in the Red Army, hence all the Soviet scientists, engineers, and technicians. Maybe that was true to a degree in the US before 1973, boys knew that college was a way out of being drafted, and studied harder. I hope I am not hijacking, I’m just confuddled a bit… ---
**Author:** ![Homer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homer)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/3 "2001-07-10T07:50:10Z")
Hell, I’ll just quote this verbatim from my hastily scribbed dope-notes. Everything in quotes is my original scribbles, everything outside is extra information I’m adding now. > [@](#): > > Begin with the alphabet and counting system. Expand to phonetics, language, and speech. After all aspects of speech and communication are mastered, advance to social interactions - how to treat people, how to converse and respond in social situations. Basically, how to talk and how to not piss people off or be a major asshole. “Treat others as you would like to be treated” type stuff. > [@](#): > > Once language and sociality are mastered, advance to basic math and science. Upon mastery of basic math and science, grade school should be completed. Add: Basic history after math + science. So basically, late elementary is all basic math, science, and history. Possibly some sex-education, that is, learning what’s going to happen very, very soon and how to deal with it. Not “pee-pee goes in badina” but “this is what’s going to happen, it won’t be fun”. > [@](#): > > High school begins with a complex history of civilization. After history comes philosophy, then psychology. Next comes social theory and sociology. Then law, history of and modern interpretations. With mastery of law, complex math and science are introduced. Finishing HS requires mastery of math + science. So you know history from Elem., now you know why things happened how they did. Then you learn why people think things are as they are, how other people work, and how to deal with how other people work. When I say law, I don’t mean deep, I mean enough law to know your rights, your freedoms, what to expect, and how to fix things when someone tries to subvert your rights or freedoms, or scams you, or whatever. > [@](#): > > After HS, five years of military service are required for citizenship. Military service is defined as a combination of armed forces training and peace corps service. Basically, if you wanna get something from your country other than a basic education, you have to fight for other people’s rights, too. Probably a choice of either five years pure military, five years pure peace corps, or half and half. Armed Forces to know what’s worth fighting for and how to fight for it, and Peace Corps to know why you’re fighting, and who you’re helping. > [@](#): > > Following military service, college is available free of charge. College courses must include social theory, psychology, and communication courses, with additional courses in law. The world is complex enough in modern times that every person should have a strong grasp on law (basically whats allowed and not in society), and psychology (why people do what they do). > [@](#): > > Following college, an additional five years of police or social work must follow. Military service taught you extra-national functions, now police work and social work teach you intra-national functions. Police work would be basic work, such as patrol, traffic, etc. Social work would be government work, necessary social programs, etc. Police work teaches you how to respect and obey the laws, social work teaches you what those laws do to you and others, and the law education teaches you how to change the laws that seem or are unfair. People might initially be afraid of everyone being a cop for a time, but the idea is that if everyone receives the same education, then people will be less likely to abuse it because the perceived power is not there, and people will be more likely to obey the law if their job was to enforce the law. > [@](#): > > After these final years, voting rights and citizenship are guaranteed. Only those who have allowed themselves to be educated are allowed to vote, and retirement pension is guaranteed only to citizens. > > Citizenship and voting rights are available and attainable by those who do not finish their education by military service, police, social, or peace corps services, or by industriousness, hard work, and education. Basically, voting rights and citizenship are granted to those who give something back to the community. You get them automatically by education and service, but you may gain them also by working hard (if you don’t finish your education), education (if you refuse military/social service), or volunteer social work (mil/soc work for people who don’t/can’t finish their education). Everyone has an option, and chance, for voting rights and citizenship, and really can only be denied them if they truly, truly don’t do jack shit. > [@](#): > > After obtaining citizenship, a citizen may choose to continue in one of the four branchs (armed forces, peace corps [extra-national works] or police forces, social services [intra-national works]) or pursue prosperity in the private sector (business). > > Those who commit nonviolent crimes will be assigned to construction jobs and menial labor, unsupervised save an ankle tracking device. Violent offenders who are possible social threats are to be under police or military supervision and are to be assigned to rural, remote, or otherwise non- or under- populated locales. > > Jails and imprisonment will be reserved for only the most brutal and serial offenders. The death penalty will be utilized only for those proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be murderers, rapists, or serial molestors. > > All persons must be trained in law and will represent themselves in all cases except when found incompotent, unstable, or unable. Legal counsel and help will be available from the state. > > Social services are defined as any act or position that benefits society non-financially, i.e. lawyers, educators, politics and social structuring. > > At all points during preliminary and secondary education, creativity, independance, and self-reliance will be encouraged, while ignorance is actively discouraged and fought at all stages. Music and art are to be integral in the learning process as will be health, fitness, and athleticism. > > No person may advance [during education] until mastery is shown, unless found to be mentally incapable. Further adult education is encouraged at all stages. > > All persons must work in the public or private sector for 1.5 times the number of years of education unless found to be physically or mentally incapable. Early retirement will reduce pension by twice the number of years not worked. Voluntary unemployment will be handled identically however involuntary unemployment will not affect retirement pension. > > All persons are guaranteed a myriad of rights both enumerated and unenumerated. The first right is a right to peaceful existance, not plagued or harassed for any reason. The second is the freedom of speech and thought. No person may restrain anothers ability to speak or think on any topic. The third is the right to privacy, no person may restrict anothers right to privacy of though, action, posession, or information. The fourth is the right of protection, no person may restrict anothers right to protect themselves by any means necessary, even if it requires the use of harmful or lethal force. The fifth is the right to justice and fair treatment, no person may restrict anothers right to be treated fairly, ethically, and justly. The sixth is the right to education and personal advancement, no person may restrict anothers right to educate or otherwise better themselves. There remain dozens, if not hundreds, of rights which remain unstated. > > The majority of these rights may be extrapolated from those above. These include, among others, the right to posess and bear firearms, to posess and sell property without fear of seizure, and so forth. These rights are unalienable to all individuals. However, many, if not most, of these rights may conflict with those of another. In such cases, it must be judged by a jury of one’s peers whose rights are superceded by anothers. No such decision may be made by a basis other than justice and fairnes on all parts. All citizens must pledge to uphold these rights not only for themselves, but as much as possible for all others also. > > If a citizen has the ability to uphold the rights of another and willingly and conciously fails to do so, the same rights which were aliented from this individual may also be restricted from that or those individuals also. > > No person may use force or coercion against another person unless such force or coercion is necessary to guarantee or uphold the rights of any person or persons. The justification of such force or coercion may be decided before or after the fact yb a jury of ones peers. No person may treat or otherwise deal with another person in such a manner that is deemed by either party to be immoral, unethical, or unjust. Such a decision may be reviewed at the request of either party by a jury of one’s peers. Whew. Well… uh… what do y’all think? Let’s try not to ignore the forest for the trees, and nitpick on one thing, but take it as a whole work and attempt to fix any major glaring errors before we devolve into a gun rights or sex ed or whatever else debate. Thanks. –Tim ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/4 "2001-07-10T12:19:54Z")
You’ve delegated construction and other “menial” work, presumably things like working in fast-food and plumbing, to criminals. I didn’t see farming included in the plan anywhere, but saw that violent offenders would be sent to rural locales, so I presume that farming is another activity for the criminal. You’ve grossly expanded the military, police, “peace-corp”, other “social work”, and education to include every single person under the age of 30, roughly, plus there’s the infrastructure of the governing bodies themselves, including the federal, state, and local governments, representatives from the communities to these, the instructors from elementary school to graduate school, administrative staff, etc. The federal government will have to provide 100% funding to every person under the age of 30, plus whoever decides to stay in the military/police/etc, as well as support the necessary infrastructure. Additionally, it is not garaunteed that every person will leave the government teat, as it were, after their mandatory services are completed. Where will the money come from? Given this plan, it is my belief that business will not be able to provide enough revenue to support this society. ---
**Author:** ![puk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ea5d25/32.png) [@puk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puk)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/5 "2001-07-10T13:58:29Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > After these final years, voting rights and citizenship are guaranteed. Only those who have allowed themselves to be educated are allowed to vote, and retirement pension is guaranteed only to citizens. > > > > Citizenship and voting rights are available and attainable by those who do not finish their education by military service, police, social, or peace corps services, or by industriousness, hard work, and education. > > Basically, voting rights and citizenship are granted to those who give something back to the community. You get them automatically by education and service, but you may gain them also by working hard (if you don’t finish your education), education (if you refuse military/social service), or volunteer social work (mil/soc work for people who don’t/can’t finish their education). Everyone has an option, and chance, for voting rights and citizenship, and really can only be denied them if they truly, truly don’t do jack shit. So you have to _earn_ a right to vote? That’s just great. Who determines whether you earned that right? What if I decide to do “volunteer” (note the quotes) social services. And what if I don’t perform up to the bossman’s satisfaction? Does that mean that I don’t get to be a citizen? What if I decide to become an poet, or maby a musician. I don’t give anything concrete to the community. What if I become a bum? I’ve never done anything worthwhile. I’m really just an eyesore and a waste of human genes. Does that mean that some redneck (who did serve in the military) can run me over with his pickup in broad daylight in frunt of his peace-corps buddies? I’m not a citizen, I can’t vote, it’a not like anyone’s going to care. > [@](#): > > High school begins with a complex history of civilization. After history comes philosophy, then psychology. Next comes social theory and sociology. Then law, history of and modern interpretations. With mastery of law, complex math and science are introduced. Finishing HS requires mastery of math + science. > [@](#): > > After HS, five years of military service are required for citizenship. Military service is defined as a combination of armed forces training and peace corps service. > [@](#): > > Following military service, college is available free of charge. College courses must include social theory, psychology, and communication courses, with additional courses in law. That’s a lot of education. And while this is generally a good thing, it is not right for everyone. I know of several people who can’t bring themselves to study. They are not dumb, as a matter of fact, some are a lot smarter then I am (which, admittedly, does not mean much), they just can’t focus on studying. In your proposal education is one of the prerequisites for citizenship. These people could not become citizens. What bugs me is that you devide the population into citizens and non-citizens. You have to earn citizenship and you can (presumably) lose it too. Being a citizen garantees that I am treated equally under the law. If I don’t like something, I have the ability to do something about it, i.e. I can vote. If I do not have this right, my only other option is violence. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/6 "2001-07-10T16:18:58Z")
Homer wrote: > [@](#): > > So basically, late elementary is all basic math, science, and history. Possibly some sex-education, that is, learning what’s going to happen very, very soon and how to deal with it. Not “pee-pee goes in badina” but “this is what’s going to happen, it won’t be fun”. … except for the part where the pee-pee does, in fact, go in the badina. That **will** be fun. 😉 > [@](#): > > After HS, five years of military service are required for citizenship. Looks like somebody’s been reading Heinlein’s _Starship Troopers_. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/7 "2001-07-10T16:49:01Z")
Oh, I forgot to ask: > [@](#): > > Following military service, college is available free of charge. College courses must include social theory, psychology, and communication courses, with additional courses in law. Why do you want everyone to have a liberal arts degree? Regarding Heinlein, I think service as a pre-requisite to citizenship isn’t a bad idea, the way he laid it out. But I think **Homer** has taken it way too far. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/8 "2001-07-10T17:07:38Z")
Well I will try to be as subjective as I can in a short period of time. I guess it is too bad I could not be a little high when I wrote this, so I will have to go with out the spherical thinking. This whole post seems to be a gross misinterpretation of Alduous Huxleys Brave New World and Starship troopers. I think the post started off quite nice with the brief interpretations of grammer school and such. Even though the OP thinks what was written was not close to the truth, it certainly is very close. At least for the grades pre-k through 5th grade. I remember those grades quite well, and I think back to what I learned in those grades, and I look at what children are learning today. I would actually say children are getting faster and faster, learning at an accelerated rate via computers, internet, involved parents etc…etc… My children for instance are learnig about the classic American history, G.Washington, T. Jefferson, Boston Tea party, etc…etc… Yet When the hollidays come around they are learning about Kwanza, Christmas, Chanukah. The Schools are teaching the diversity of the globe and getting away from teaching the singularity of a nation and segregated populations. I went to grammer school in the seventies and eighties. We had no clue what Kwanza was or a global society. I like the current trend of schools and teaching. I wish the schools would go even further into history and the future for that matter. American Children should be trilingual… I take my kids on bi-yearly vacations all over the US and the world. They see and experience different cultures. and… ok ok ok I am getting waay off the subject. I think you understand what I am trying to sat anyway. I am not going to pick apart the OP’s views on Military and citizenship. That in my opinion would be a slight regression of values and self. The regulation issues that other replys have stated are very valid, and the thought of a militarized society in this day and age is scary at least. I would hate to have to raise my children in society where they had to worry about having to learn how to kill others and love one another at the same time. I say keep the military for those who want to join, and keep freedom of choice a worldly goal. I am not a hippy but hey teach love not war. Come on… P.S. sorry if this is written with shaughty spelling, I was in a hurry ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/9 "2001-07-10T19:43:04Z")
I can’t help but think that there is a legitimate question in here someplace. That question is whether the U.S. should reinstitute a universal draft of ALL physically and mentally able residents, without regard to gender or social standing. It seems to me that the reinstitution of a truly universal draft would be a good thing for both the country and the individual. This contemplates a system in which all U.S. residents are conscripted for one year of military or alternative service at completion of high school or age 18, whichever is later. There are clearly a number of problems with this, one of which is what are the armed forces going to do with all those people. It seems to me, however that such a program solves many more problems than it creates. One problem that it solves is the increasing isolation of the armed forces from the rest of society. It would also seem to serve to restrict a tendency for society to become increasingly stratified. It doesn’t seem to me that the possible delay in starting a career, or a family or an advanced education is seriously prejudiced by one year of required service with a tour in the reserve forces afterwards. I hate to think that we already have a generation that has no experience of boot camp or how to head space a .50 cal. machine gun, or what it is like to share a squad bay with 20 other guys or how to take care of your self when your mother isn’t there to do it for you. It would give our people a shared experience and some understanding of the lives and needs of other people as well as an exposure to the real military virtues of loyalty, courage, endurance and comradery and an appreciation of creamed ground beef on toast for breakfast. It seems to me that few people have suffered any lasting hurt from being required to rise early, keep them selves and there stuff clean and orderly, and briefly lead a simple, strenuous and structured life. ---
**Author:** ![SpaceGhostofArrakis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@SpaceGhostofArrakis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpaceGhostofArrakis)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2001, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/10 "2001-07-10T23:45:42Z")
Speaking as a Cadet at Texas A&M, I would like to say \* Huh?\* While I support Heinlen’s idea of Service-citizenship, I think that you do not necessarily have to have be in Military Service. Screw Peace Corps, where the hell did you get that? Have said Citizens go into the Americorps, meant for \*\* domestic \*\* improvement, sort of like a combination CCC/WPA. Military service would qualify. So would Police work. Hell, you could even have them go to a Military Acadamy style College (VMI, Citadel, Corps of Cadets @ TAMU, VA Tech, etc) completely paid. But come on, \* Five years??\* That is way, way to long. 2 years is more realistic. The Three years left I have are going to suck as it is, and I’m going to be a ‘student’. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/11 "2001-07-11T04:23:45Z")
I won’t say anything about the elementary level plans of the OP, but I have to disagree with the rest of it. First of all, I don’t like the claim that a single high school curriculum can work for every student. I personally believe that from ninth grade onwards, students should have more flexibility in taking classes that interest them and avoiding those that don’t. I figure that many high school dropouts occur because of boredom with the curriculum, but the system described in the OP, students are forced into a set of classes without any choice. What happens to high school dropouts in this system, anyway? In my opinion, there’s one important right that got left out of Homer’s list. That is the right to have all the other rights without first being employed or otherwise controlled by the government. You don’t have to do anything to earn your rights. Isn’t that what’s meant by “inalienable” rights. ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/12 "2001-07-11T05:42:17Z")
I think **ITR Champion** pretty much nailed it on that one little right that is left out. I am very glad that the society envisioned only exists inside a few heads, and not outside of them. ---
**Author:** ![Homer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Homer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/13 "2001-07-11T10:49:08Z")
I don’t have alot of time to write a big reply, but I wanted to say real quick that while everyone would have their rights guaranteed (listed “briefly” at the end of the second post) at birth, the only things that citizenship would grant would be voting rights, and retirement pension. The government would be paid for mostly by business profit taxes (non-transferrable to the consumer), and ramping sales taxes (ex. under $10 no tax, $10-50 1%, $50-100 2%, the more expensive it is, the more taxes you pay). When I say peace corps, I don’t mean THE peace corps, I mean, well… American peace corps or whatever. Hopefully I have time later to write a longer reply. –Tim ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/14 "2001-07-11T11:08:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\* > The government would be paid for mostly by business profit taxes (non-transferrable to the consumer), and ramping sales taxes (ex. under $10 no tax, $10-50 1%, $50-100 2%, the more expensive it is, the more taxes you pay). > \*\* How high would taxes have to be to provide this level of revenue? Business will go somewhere else where the taxes aren’t so damned high. Why should the tax on a more expensive item be a higher percentage? Why is it more desirable to have, say, a 15% tax on a $15,000 car and a 1% tax on a $15 CD? When taxes get too high, people will stop buying them. Let’s face it, the really expensive items are bought by businesses, so once again you’re penalizing them. ---
**Author:** ![puk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ea5d25/32.png) [@puk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puk)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/15 "2001-07-11T11:33:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homer \* > \*\*I don’t have alot of time to write a big reply, but I wanted to say real quick that while everyone would have their rights guaranteed (listed “briefly” at the end of the second post) at birth, the only things that citizenship would grant would be voting rights, and retirement pension. > \*\* Take away a person’s voting rights and all the other rights will fade eventually. Why? Because there is no way to stand up for your other rights. For example: a bill is proposed that allows only citizens to own property. Non citizens can’t vote, so they are powerless to stop this bill. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/16 "2001-07-11T18:30:46Z")
homer - I don’t even know where to begin. First of all, America is based on freedom. Creating some sort of benevolent fascist regime to…what is our objective here again? 1. Elementary, HS, and colleges already teach everything you suggested. I went through public schools and I have a challenging, very high paying job. Or where did you think all of these American doctors, lawyers, business owners and executives come from? 2)Mandatory military service is bullshit (except in times of emergancy): Graduate HS at age 17 - 5 Years military service - 4 Years college - 5 Years police * * * =31 Years old before I even start a career doing what I actually want to do? And do I get to decide my career or will the state decide for me? Also, our modern military is highly trained and highly specialized. We don’t fight wars by sending waves of soldiers at each other anymore, so we don’t need masses of soldiers to fill the ranks. 1. Economics - As already stated, huge business taxes to pay for a massive military and police state is a bad idea. High taxes will discourage economic growth so you are left with a huge jobs program and no way to pay for it. Also, any tax on business would eventually be passed on to the consumers. 2. Forced labor of criminals is also a bad idea - Constructing a building takes skilled labor(I also happen to have a degree in Civil Engineering). You can’t just trow together a bunch of petty criminals and say “go to work”. 3. Everyone has the same rights - If I have to live under the same laws as “citizens” then I want the same rights. Otherwise, I’m using my 5 yrs mandatory military training to rise up against the system. > [@](#): > > Spavined Gelding - > I hate to think that we already have a generation that has no experience of boot camp or how to head space a .50 cal. machine gun, or what it is like to share a squad bay with 20 other guys… What the hell do I need to know that for? > [@](#): > > Spavined Gelding - > …well as an exposure to the real military virtues of loyalty, courage, endurance and comradery and an appreciation of creamed ground beef on toast for breakfast. As well as the real military values of elitism, sexism, racism, following orders without question, killing or being killed (theres something they don’t seem to mention in the [goarmy.com](http://goarmy.com) commercials: “We will train you to kill another person at 300 yards before they do the same to you”). Don’t get me wrong. I have nothing but respect for the military and the dificult job they do. But please don’t insult peoples intelligence by making out like the military is some infallable organization that is the cure to all our social problems. > [@](#): > > Spavined Gelding - > It seems to me that few people have suffered any lasting hurt from being required to rise early, keep them selves and there stuff clean and orderly, and briefly lead a simple, strenuous and structured life. Well, no one has been hurt from sitting on ones ass and watching TV all day. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![SpaceGhostofArrakis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@SpaceGhostofArrakis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpaceGhostofArrakis)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/17 "2001-07-11T21:50:37Z")
> [@](#): > > As well as the real military values of elitism, sexism, racism, Which military are you talking about \*\* Msmith537\*\*? The Iraqi Military? Certainly not the U.S. Military, because \* it’s been desegregated longer than any other aspect of American Society.\* Hell, the NAVY has been desegregated since the \*\* CIVIL WAR \*\* Where on earth did you get this “elitism” Bullshit? All the great generals of the Recent past, Colin Powell, Shelton, Omar Bradley, Douglas MacArthur, They all came from poor backgrounds. Maybe you mean “elitism” because they offer to pay for college? Yeah, those bastards. How dare the U.S. Navy Department pay for my education. Sonsuhbitches. Now Sexism. Of all your previous statments (including “following orders”, etc.) This is probaly the one grounded in the most sense of reality. However over, I am inclined to think that this is less of a problem ever since those Navy pilots made such asses of themselves at Tailhook a while back. You make it seem as if a new recruit (or Cadet) has ‘females are evil’ hammered into them. That is, of course, bullshit. As a ROTC Cadet, I had to go through several “sensitivity training” courses that I would’ve expected in a \* Dilbert \* cartoon. * * * Now, back to the thread topic. I think \*\* Homer \*\* goes overboard here. The length of time given is wwwaaayyyyy to long. I’m thinking 2 yrs military service OR 4 yrs Social service (i.e. AmeriCorps). Either way, they should get to vote, have college education payed for , and allowed access to Nat’l Parks. For the record, \*\* Homer\*\* The Peace Corps involves students being sent off to some God-Forsaken country to teach them to read or something. If we’re trying to instil patriotism, that isn’t they way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2001, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/18 "2001-07-11T23:48:04Z")
**msmith537** > [@](#): > > As well as the real military values of elitism, sexism, racism, following orders without question, killing or being killed (theres something they don’t seem to mention in the [goarmy.com](http://goarmy.com) commercials: “We will train you to kill another person at 300 yards before they do the same to you”). > > Don’t get me wrong. I have nothing but respect for the military and the dificult job they do. But please don’t insult peoples intelligence by making out like the military is some infallable organization that is the cure to all our social problems. You seem to lack information. Having been in the military, I experienced none of the _ahem_ values you list. Indeed, I find it quite childish that you attribute such behavior to an organization that you have apparently not spent any time researching. Unless, as **Spacey** said, you’re referring to some other military than the US. I find it quite difficult to believe that you have “nothing but respect” for the military. You have also failed to convince me that 2 years mandatory service as a prerequisite to citizenship is a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2001, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/19 "2001-07-12T00:25:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ITR champion \* > \*\*You don’t have to do anything to earn your rights. Isn’t that what’s meant by “inalienable” rights. \*\* I disagree strongly with this, although most US citizens don’t seem to have a problem with it. Right’s aren’t ‘free’, they require responsibility. Certainly everyone has the ‘right’ to be treated with dignity but not necessarily to vote. This is straight Starship Troopers, I know, but Heinlein made a good point. Someone who is ignorant of their responsibilities as a citizen can hardly be expected to be a good citizen. I’m not sure if mandatory service (military or ‘Peace Corp-esque’) is the answer or if education is: my guess is it should probably be a combination of all of them. And as far as disenfranchising people goes, I’d say that I don’t want anyone voting who is either too lazy, stupid and/or self-centered to spend 2 years (I think this is the standard term in Germany) doing something for society as a whole rather than themselves. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2001, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933/20 "2001-07-12T01:54:46Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by SpaceGhostofArrakis \* > \*\* Screw Peace Corps, where the hell did you get that? Have said Citizens go into the Americorps, meant for \*\* domestic \*\* improvement, sort of like a combination CCC/WPA. > But come on, \* Five years??_ > \*\* AmeriCorps: The Domestic peace corps. I finished my service with AmeriCorps_VISTA in November. A_V is a little different than the AmeriCorps, because while they do 100% direct service, people in A\*V do only about 30% direct service, and 70% program building. It was a rewarding and valuable year, and I got experience that I wouldn’t have gotten anywhere else. I mean, where else is a 22-23 year old going to get the chance to completely run a literacy program for low income preschoolers and toddlers in an entire county? I planned and implemented literacy and multi-sensory arts programming for 40 to 300 kids a week, depending on the time of year, doing everything from picking books and developing “leasons” (Harold And The Purple crayon is about using your imagination, etc,) to record keeping, press releases, budgeting, keeping in touch with parents and child care providers, scheduling(for myself, and up to 6 other VISTAs in the summer,) researching grants and creating the arts projects…It was interesting to say the least. Anyway, I’d love to see Americorps_VISTA (not Americorps, since A_V is for, um, either the more educated or those with 5+ years of work experience after high school) be a “fifth year” for college students. There is a lot that can be done just about everywhere in the US, since a lot of the poverty is “hidden” you’d be surprised how many people are happy to have your…assistance. National service is it’s own reward, since you make almost no money, it has to be. Though, if it was college option I’d hope that they’d be able to live in dorms. Five years though, that’s a hell of a long time to commit to anything, especially if you’re young! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/better-school-systems-mandatory-mil-service/71933.md?page=2)