We just had this a year or so ago. Someone came up to me with a resume that featured a place I used to work. I didn’t know the guy, but I can call around. Called an old friend of mine. Guy had faked test documentation, was sleeping with someone who worked for him.
Granted, in that case “fired or quit” wasn’t terribly relevant - either way the rumor mill would have gotten him.
Actually, it depends a lot on the circumstances. Those told, “quit or be fired,” can often collect unemployment. Of course, there are evidentiary issues here. If the employer denies issuing the ultimatum, a hearing officer might well believe the employer. Similarly, under many of the circumstances that Auntie Pam mentions, you could establish constructive termination. You’ve usually got to show that the circumstances were so intolerable that no reasonable employee would continue work under those conditions, or a similar standard. That’s a pretty high burden. You might win; you might not. See, http://www.rutan.com/siteFiles/Publications/B8467AB9E8A898F5704F354A650DA957.pdf
I did unemployment hearings when I worked at Legal Aid. I was very successful with constructive termination claims. Then again, I had to learn the unemployment system before I was able to win those cases. Getting subpoenas issued was very tricky; and when the employers ignored subpoenas, I had to be very aggressive about it. The rules ahd practices are not always well-documented.
On the other hand, sometimes the employer didn’t even show up at the hearing and the hearing officer just recorded my client’s testimony and issued the award.
Sometimes they don’t really forget. There were times when someone had to be fired because the contract required it but we were sympathetic to the employee’s situation. In one instance, a guy punched somebody and that somebody hit back. Rules were that both guys had to be fired. We contested UC for the guy who hit first, but we forgot about the hearing for the second guy.
And there were times when we were so glad to be rid of an employee, we didn’t care if he got UC or not. He was gone. That was enough.
I assume being fired is far worse. Our new CEO has made it plain that for serious infractions at work where formerly staff were asked to resign from now on they will be fired.
From a psycological standpoint- I’d recommend quitting.
My old employment never laid anyone off - ever, they always fired them, and then didn’t contest unemployment. It was their severance package.
Even knowing this, it sucks to have been fired.
References: None. I’ve left a path of destruction behind me.
Right. I should have been clearer. The employer doesn’t have to contest the claim. If the employer doesn’t then it’s pretty much an automatic win for the claimant (at the application level). I was only talking about contested UC claims. In Ohio, the employee’s claim would usually be denied if the employer contested it. If that happened, the employee could appeal. The appeal usually resulted in a “redetermination,” which meant another UC employee looked at the same paperwork and came to the same result, issuing another piece of paper informing the employee that he’d lost. This was another rough patch because if the employee had handled the case up to that point, the employee would often think the appeal was lost and not re-appeal the redetermination.
If you appealed the redetermination, then you got a hearing. Employers had the opposite problem. Some inexperienced employers would think they could contest the UC claim and never have to attend a hearing (or they expected they could send Jim from HR instead of Bob the VP who actually did the firing). When they got subpoenaed, they’d realize the costs were higher than they’d expected and either send Jim from HR, ignoring the subpoena or just not show up at the hearing.
More sophisticated employers would contest the case until the hearing was scheduled, hoping the employee would either not show up (automatic loss even if the employer didn’t show either) or show up and start spewing conspiracy theory and blow it. I gave my clients a half-hour lecture (lots of repetition) about these things, to decrease their frequency.
That just proves my point. It doesn’t matter if you were fired or quit. Officially, the company might just give your dates of employment. But if your boss or coworkers think you’re a jerk and they tell someone at your prospective employer, the new employer won’t care about the circumstances of your departure. Reputation matters more than whether you got fired or not.
Technically a lay off is when the company terminates your performance for economic reasons. Being “fired” generally means for cause - stealing, incompetance, insubordination, whatever.
Some professional firms with an “up or out” policy will “counsel out” employees who they do not plan to promote. It’s like you have 2 years to go from Analyst to Associate and then another 2 years for Senior Associate and so on.
Your likelihood of getting unemployment, if you quit and your employer contests it, varies tremendously by state. Make your judgments about how that is likely to work for you only based on what people say about experience with and laws in your state. Even if your state is employee friendly on that, consider whether you have a reasonable argument.
What your employer would say about your termination has more to do with the industry and size of firm. Large firms tend to only give dates, smaller firms tend to give more info. But if your former employer is inclined to say something negative, they are likely to do that regardless of whether it was formally a quit or a firing or a layoff. In some cases of firing or layoff, you may be able to negotiate how your reference will be given. This can be to the employer’s advantage in that you might not need to claim unemployment if you don’t have a negative reference holding you back. So if it comes down to a layoff/firing situation, you might as well ask for this consideration.
In my situation, I had a good relationship with my superiors, the job wasn’t working out, but not for anything in relation to my performance, so we agreed together that I would “voluntarily” leave for a fair severence. I was eligible for unemployment, and we also worked out what I would say on job interviews and my superiors told me I’d get a great reference. If things are really going that badly at work, maybe you should have a talk with someone, and not simply “wait to be fired”.
I will also give fair warning;
I have worked for companies and bosses who have made it clear that they never fire anyone. They simply make your life a living hell until you quit.
Illegal and immoral demands, always verbal, never on paper. Verbal insults and slander. Negative consequences for people who act friendly to you, so that you become isolated. All “your word against theirs”. Sudden changes in your shift hours, your days off. Cancelling your vacations because they “need you”. Being required to work weekends and holidays. Arranging things to happen at odd hours so that you can be called in to the office. The lack of sleep and the constant barrage of crap hopefully causing you to lose your temper and do something stupid while they pretend to be mystified by your “sudden change” and “strange” objections to doing your job.
Nothing ever in writing except;
Reasonable sounding letters that on the surface, simply ask you to do your job. But underneath the surface, you will find that you can never really satisfy their demands.
(I just got one of these for daring to question my supervisor. For no other reason but that I questioned what he was doing! So basically, now he can write me up for merely forgetting to complete a minor task on time, or failing to do every single task, even when I’m forced to work alone when we’re never supposed to have less than two peope on the job!)
Been there, done that, quit that job in the past. Now with the new situation, I have purchased a digital audio recorder (cell phone size, 28 hour capacity, $35 at Target) to have in my pocket during “discussions”. One of the people at my place of employment has already won a lawsuit against them based on recording conversations with the HR Director, where she made statements contrary to state law on the phone with him, then denied them in meetings with others.
(He holds up recording and plays for the room;
“Oh, that’s not you, identifying yourself as so-and-so, telling me such-and-such, which is against the law?”)
God, I wish I’d had one 7 years ago when my boss told me that I wasn’t going to be allowed to go to the Doctor anymore after I’d suffered a major back injury!
Depending on specifics such as location, this may be illegal. In Pennsylvania, a motorist that was pulled over recorded the officer’s words without his knowledge and was charged (IIRC) under the state’s wiretap laws.
Most places, it isn’t. As long as one person in the room consents (the person with the recording device), it’s legal.
But in the workplace, the primary value is in busting liars. Your scumbag boss tells you one thing in his meeting with you, he tells his bosses something else. The big boss considers you the liar. You pull out the device and play the truth for him. If he’s scum, he reacts badly. If he’s got any integrity, your boss is toast.
In the case of my meeting with my supervisor on Monday, I was worried that all this arrogant bullshit he was telling me would be completely denied when I went to HR. But no, he’s the boasting (and stupid) type and was completely convinced of his inerrancy. Sadly for him, on the very day his big promotion was announced (today), he got seriously bitchslapped by both HR and our VP. Had to send out an e-mail to the entire department backtracking everything he’d said to me.
Sure buddy. Tell me again how it’s insubordination for me to speak to HR. How they have no authority over our department. How our department exists outside the organizational rules. Please. Boast to me again of this delusion.
“Memo to self: Get resume in order ASAP and look for new job, possibly in completely different industry.”
What kind of disfunctional work environment are you employed in where you need to record conversations in order to cover your ass? More importantly, why don’t you find a new job and tell them to F off?
Just to expand on this a bit. According to this ( Taping constitutes 'interception' of call, court finds - The Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press ) 12 states require consent of all parties. Every state except Vermont (which doesn’t require all parties to consent anyway) imposes criminal penalties for violations. While most states are what’s called one-party states, it’s a good idea to make sure your state is one of them before you record conversations.
If you even think there is the remote possibility you will ever apply for a government job QUIT. With the Patriot Act a background check is required for many more jobs. Even the low level checks, just to verify if what you said is correct, can send out agents to ask questions. They go back 7+ years, depending on the job. If you lie, it’s curtains and bye bye job when they find out. It may not prevent you getting the job depending on the circumstances, but it’s a real stressful situation explaining what happened and trying to make yourself look good. We just went through this. My daughter never thought she would ever work for the government but the right job came up overseas.
Check, doing so now.
As I stated in my previous post and expanded upon here, one where my arrogant and stupid former military/former cop NEW supervisor is telling me that it is a violation of our policies for me to speak to HR without following the Chain of Command all the way up to the AVP and gaining his permission. Where doing so without first having done this is Insubordination. That questioning or discussing Policies is Insubordination.
He found out otherwise, because he got bitchslapped by HR and the AVP, who certainly doesn’t want to be bothered with this crap. However, he then found a new avenue of harassment and retailiation to take…
Which is taking me to the EEOC tomorrow morning.
Again, in the process.
A year ago, I ranted here about an abusive coworker and the Boss Who Did Nothing. That was December. Starting then, I looked for a new job. I had an interview lined up for a Friday afternoon in late April, and it was in my normal schedule to leave work at noon that day. The boss caught me at the door, told me he thought I would get the new job and fired me on the spot. I never got the satisfaction of giving him the stack of evidence (printed out screenshots) of my coworker reading my emails, sending porn to other employees, and threatening my life. I regret that I never got to go over that stuff with him and say “Are you going to fire him? No? Here’s my letter of resignation.”
The good part is that that place and that crappy boss are in the past. Hopefully, psycho-coworker and he are now cellmates.
Yes, I got that job. Interviewed on Friday and Monday, started work that Thursday. It was great going to work on a Friday and knowing that a week earlier, I had felt trapped in hell with no clue that I would be a free man a week later.
I wish I could have quit, but I was just delighted to be free from that place. They gave me the creeps, rewarding people who threaten their coworkers. Just creepy.