# Betty Boop - Surrealist Masterpieces? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 5, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765 "2014-11-05T15:38:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/1 "2014-11-05T15:38:40Z")
Woah. Like everyone, I had always vaguely known about a cartoon character named “Betty Boop”, from the 1930s - mostly from the marketing of her image on consumer goods, as a fashion icon. I had always assumed that the original cartoons would be boring, as I had no interest in a 1930s fashion plate kid’s cartoon with an oddly oversized head. A friend of mine introduced me to some of the original cartoons (pre-Hays Code, that is, before the authorities that be cracked down). Man o man, those things are hard-core weird and wonderful. Definitely not for kids, full of sexual and drug references - essentially, surrealistic music videos for jazz tunes. The animation is still incredible, especially considering how early these cartoons were. Though inappropriate by today’s standards in lots of ways - some of the humour derives from Betty being expressly threatened with rape, having her clothes torn off, etc. Also, references to doing coke and smoking opium (“kick the gong around” apparently was jive slang for smoking opium - features on at least two of the cartoons I saw). The most bizzare shorts I saw were “Snow White”, “The Old Man of the Mountain”, “Minnie the Moocher”, and a very early one (Betty still has poodle ears!) “Mysterious Mose”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3\_KbMd-xQU Anyone have any other suggested shorts? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/2 "2014-11-05T16:08:25Z")
There are lots of them. Louis Armstrong plays (and appears in) _I’ll be Glad When You’re Dead, you Rascal You_ (which is also filled with pretty racist images): [https://search.yahoo.com/search;\_ylt=A0LEVzEwSFpUgZwAuzhXNyoA;\_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZANaUmQzZzhYcVR5RzNBT2R0eFM1VzVBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwM0BG9yaWdpbgNzZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzI3BHF1ZXJ5A0xvdWlzIEFybXN0cm9uZyBCZXR0eXkgQm9vcAR0X3N0bXADMTQxNTIwMzQ1NQ--?p=Louis+Armstrong+Bettyy+Boop&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1](https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0LEVzEwSFpUgZwAuzhXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZANaUmQzZzhYcVR5RzNBT2R0eFM1VzVBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwM0BG9yaWdpbgNzZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzI3BHF1ZXJ5A0xvdWlzIEFybXN0cm9uZyBCZXR0eXkgQm9vcAR0X3N0bXADMTQxNTIwMzQ1NQ--?p=Louis+Armstrong+Bettyy+Boop&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1) The Fleischers put a lot of jazz into their stuff, with performances by jazz greats. Not all are musical, though. If you want surreal, it’s hard to beat _Bimbo’s Initiastion_: [https://search.yahoo.com/search;\_ylt=A0LEVzEwSFpUgZwAuzhXNyoA;\_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZANaX3BaWFQ5WlRIT1daejV3YVJEeThBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwMyBG9yaWdpbgNzZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzE4BHF1ZXJ5A0JpbWJvJ3MgSW5pdGlhdGlvbgR0X3N0bXADMTQxNTIwMzU5NQ--?p=Bimbo's+Initiation&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1](https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0LEVzEwSFpUgZwAuzhXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZANaX3BaWFQ5WlRIT1daejV3YVJEeThBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwMyBG9yaWdpbgNzZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzE4BHF1ZXJ5A0JpbWJvJ3MgSW5pdGlhdGlvbgR0X3N0bXADMTQxNTIwMzU5NQ--?p=Bimbo%27s+Initiation&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1) A big hint – look at the earlier Betty Boops, not the later ones. Once they decided to make Betty “family friendly” in the late 30s and 40s she stopped being both surreal and sexy. But don’t go too early – Betty started out as a dog (!) – those loop earrings of hers were originally long Goofy-like dog ears. But, yes, her cartoons WERE surreal masterpieces. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/3 "2014-11-05T16:11:38Z")
By the way, they obviously didn’t look closely into the songs used, or else didn’t care. I suspect a combination of both. In Snow White the song is “St. James Infirmary Blues”, which is, when you come down to it, a lament about a lover who died in the emergency hospital from venereal disease. As the Koko-turned-Walrus/Skeleton sings this, the wall in the background shows some pretty violent and adult (and racist, in context) images. See here, for instance: > **[St. James Infirmary Blues](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._James_Infirmary_Blues)** > > "St. James Infirmary Blues" is an American blues song and jazz standard of uncertain origin. Louis Armstrong made the song famous in his 1928 recording on which Don Redman was credited as composer; later releases gave the name Joe Primrose, a pseudonym of Irving Mills. The melody is eight bars long, unlike songs in the classic blues genre, where there are 12 bars. It is in a minor key, and has a 44 time signature, but has also been played in 34. > "St. James Infirmary Blues", sometimes known as ... ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/4 "2014-11-05T16:21:56Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > There are lots of them. Louis Armstrong plays (and appears in) _I’ll be Glad When You’re Dead, you Rascal You_ (which is also filled with pretty racist images): > > [Louis Armstrong Bettyy Boop - Yahoo Search Results](https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0LEVzEwSFpUgZwAuzhXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZANaUmQzZzhYcVR5RzNBT2R0eFM1VzVBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwM0BG9yaWdpbgNzZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzI3BHF1ZXJ5A0xvdWlzIEFybXN0cm9uZyBCZXR0eXkgQm9vcAR0X3N0bXADMTQxNTIwMzQ1NQ--?p=Louis+Armstrong+Bettyy+Boop&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1) Being chased by the disembodied head of Louis Armstrong threatening death would be pretty frightening - but yeah, having him morph in and out of some sort of monkey-tribesman is pretty damn racist. Wonder what he thought of the whole thing, at the time! > [@](#): > > The Fleischers put a lot of jazz into their stuff, with performances by jazz greats. Not all are musical, though. If you want surreal, it’s hard to beat _Bimbo’s Initiastion_: > > [Bimbo s Initiation - Yahoo Search Results](https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0LEVzEwSFpUgZwAuzhXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZANaX3BaWFQ5WlRIT1daejV3YVJEeThBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwMyBG9yaWdpbgNzZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzE4BHF1ZXJ5A0JpbWJvJ3MgSW5pdGlhdGlvbgR0X3N0bXADMTQxNTIwMzU5NQ--?p=Bimbo%27s+Initiation&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1) :eek: Okay, that really takes the cake of bizzareness to a whole new level. > [@](#): > > A big hint – look at the earlier Betty Boops, not the later ones. Once they decided to make Betty “family friendly” in the late 30s and 40s she stopped being both surreal and sexy. But don’t go too early – Betty started out as a dog (!) – those loop earrings of hers were originally long Goofy-like dog ears. She still has dog ears in “Bimbo’s Initiation”. > [@](#): > > But, yes, her cartoons WERE surreal masterpieces. I agree even more, after watching those you posted. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/5 "2014-11-05T16:25:27Z")
Fleischer Studios also did the _**[Koko the Clown](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf-z2JGbUBs)**_ shorts some years before Betty Boop (and whence came Bimbo). Max Fleischer’s brain was a scary but fascinating place. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/6 "2014-11-05T16:28:41Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > A big hint – look at the earlier Betty Boops, not the later ones. Once they decided to make Betty “family friendly” in the late 30s and 40s she stopped being both surreal and sexy. My understanding is that sexy, surreal Betty was a victim of the “Hays Code” of 1934. > **[Hays Code](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Production_Code)** > > The Motion Picture Production Code was a set of industry guidelines for the self-censorship of content that was applied to most motion pictures released by major studios in the United States from 1934 to 1968. It is also popularly known as the Hays Code, after Will H. Hays, president of the Motion Picture Producers and Distributors of America (MPPDA) from 1922 to 1945. Under Hays's leadership, the MPPDA, later the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) and the Motion Picture Association... ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/7 "2014-11-05T16:31:34Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Fleischer Studios also did the _**[Koko the Clown](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf-z2JGbUBs)**_ shorts some years before Betty Boop (and whence came Bimbo). > > Max Fleischer’s brain was a scary but fascinating place. Heh, I never even knew that character existed earlier - he shows up in Betty Boop of course. Will check out more … ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/8 "2014-11-05T16:45:01Z")
Koko goes back to the silent days. I have some of his silent cartoons. He was originally brother Dave dressed up in a clown suit and rotoscoped (The Fleischers invented the Rotoscope), but clearly they got away from that pretty fast, because the human body can’t do the things Koko had to. ---
**Author:** ![randwill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@randwill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randwill)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/9 "2014-11-05T16:52:13Z")
I have the complete Betty Boop box set on VHS. I wonder if this has ever been released on Blu-ray. Not that I would ever part with the VHS set because it looks so cool on the shelf: [Betty Boop VHS Collection - VHS Photo (35926125) - Fanpop](http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/vhs/images/35926125/title/betty-boop-vhs-collection-photo) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/10 "2014-11-05T16:54:02Z")
I must say the whole period is really interesting - a whole cultural phenom I never knew existed. In particular, I knew about the character “Betty Boop” because she appears on mugs and purses, but I had no idea that there was their whole vein of truly bizzare animation. Is there any really good source for early Fleisher studeo cartoons? I’m viewing them off of youtube, which isn’t necessarily the best quality. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/11 "2014-11-05T17:52:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I must say the whole period is really interesting - a whole cultural phenom I never knew existed. In particular, I knew about the character “Betty Boop” because she appears on mugs and purses, but I had no idea that there was their whole vein of truly bizzare animation. > > Is there any really good source for early Fleisher studeo cartoons? I’m viewing them off of youtube, which isn’t necessarily the best quality. Get hold of Leslie Cabarga’s wonderful book **The Fleischer Story** It’s been published twice, with significant changes between the editions. Cabarga wrote it when a lot of the Fleischer artists were still alive, and could tell him about the place. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/12 "2014-11-05T18:06:01Z")
Cabarga’s book (second edition): [http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-fleischer-story-leslie-cabarga/1000365074?ean=9780306803130](http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-fleischer-story-leslie-cabarga/1000365074?ean=9780306803130) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/13 "2014-11-05T18:39:30Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Get hold of Leslie Cabarga’s wonderful book **The Fleischer Story** It’s been published twice, with significant changes between the editions. Cabarga wrote it when a lot of the Fleischer artists were still alive, and could tell him about the place. That’s awesome! Thanks for the tip - I ordered a copy (not cheap!) ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/14 "2014-11-05T19:05:51Z")
Felix the Cat is even more trippy although the drawings are more basic. Betty Boop is fantastically well animated and worth viewing even if you’re not interested in the Ha-cha-cha’s! ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/15 "2014-11-05T19:25:35Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That’s awesome! Thanks for the tip - I ordered a copy (not cheap!) Used copies are cheap. New copies are expensive ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/16 "2014-11-05T19:29:42Z")
Voiced by Mae Questel, who most people now would know as Aunt Bethany, in Christmas Vacation. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/17 "2014-11-05T19:32:43Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Voiced by Mae Questel, who most people now would know as Aunt Bethany, in Christmas Vacation. Mae was the best-known of the Betty voices, but there were three or four others. Mae was still around to do Betty’s voice in _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_ in 1988 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/18 "2014-11-05T22:22:03Z")
There was a documentary on Fleischer a few years ago. Leonard Maltin (obviously a big fan) stars. I can’t remember the title though. Fleischer also invented “Follow The Bouncing Ball!” to sing along with lyrics. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/19 "2014-11-05T23:33:26Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > The Fleischers put a lot of jazz into their stuff, with performances by jazz greats. Not all are musical, though. If you want surreal, it’s hard to beat _Bimbo’s Initiastion_: > > [Bimbo s Initiation - Yahoo Search Results](https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0LEVzEwSFpUgZwAuzhXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZANaX3BaWFQ5WlRIT1daejV3YVJEeThBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwMyBG9yaWdpbgNzZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzE4BHF1ZXJ5A0JpbWJvJ3MgSW5pdGlhdGlvbgR0X3N0bXADMTQxNTIwMzU5NQ--?p=Bimbo%27s+Initiation&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1) I’ll see your _Bimbo’s Initiation_ and raise you [_Swing You Sinners_.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNttqN1wUMY) ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/20 "2014-11-06T00:35:31Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Voiced by Mae Questel, who most people now would know as Aunt Bethany, in Christmas Vacation. I would think she’s far better known for being the voice of Olive Oyl, from the early 30’s to at least the mid 50’s. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765.md?page=2)