# Betty Boop - Surrealist Masterpieces? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 5, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765 "2014-11-05T15:38:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/21 "2014-11-06T00:42:05Z")
PubDHub, on Roku, has a metric ass-ton of Betty Boop, Koko the Clown, and other early cartoons going back to the silent era. PubDHub Gold, which costs like $2 a year, has even more. The guy who curates that channel has excellent taste and writes good descriptions of his offerings. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/22 "2014-11-06T01:33:01Z")
The Cab Calloway ones were truly awesome. If you want old and surreal check out Windsor McCay Video Links Full [Gertie the Dinosaur](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmVra1mW7LU) [Winsor McCay - How a Mosquito Operates [1912]](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvzAJouHh7k) His masterpiece: [Winsor McCay’s Dreams of the Rarebit Fiend: THE PET (1921)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s39jimMyAFI) ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/23 "2014-11-06T02:06:43Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > I would think she’s far better known for being the voice of Olive Oyl, from the early 30’s to at least the mid 50’s. Maybe, but I suppose it depends who you ask. Based on photographs of her taken through the years, it’s Betty Boop, no contest. In at least 8 out of 10, she’s striking that familiar pose. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/24 "2014-11-06T04:28:13Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > There was a documentary on Fleischer a few years ago. Leonard Maltin (obviously a big fan) stars. I can’t remember the title though. > **[Amazon.com: Cartoon Madness: Fantastic Max Fleischer \[VHS\] : Cartonn Madness:...](https://www.amazon.com/Cartoon-Madness-Fantastic-Max-Fleischer/dp/6302729971)** > > A rare collection of classic cartoons from the legendary Max Fleischer hosted by film critic Leonard Maltin. It’s a great video. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/25 "2014-11-06T05:05:13Z")
Kokomo: [Koko the Clown sings "St. James Infirmary Blues" in Betty Boop's Snow White - YouTube](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aDATXtewPrg) ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/26 "2014-11-06T08:24:47Z")
The character of Betty Boop was probably based on the singer Helen Kane. Here she is singing [I Wanna Be Loved by You](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hclK-UKJNgk). Betty’s voice was very similar to Kane’s, and Betty was also made to look like Kane (with the big eyes and pincurls). Kane often worked the phrase “Boop-oop-a-doop” into her songs. She billed herself as the “Boop-oop-a-doop-girl.” Helen Kane didn’t get anything professionally out of Betty Boop: not credit, work (because Mae Questel did the voice) nor money. Kane sued and lost. The Fleischers claimed that Kane had cribbed her act from a singer called “Baby Esther” who performed at the Cotton Club (and it’s possible that she did). They also pointed out that Kane’s appearance wasn’t unique - for example, pincurls were a common style in the thirties. Still, it seems likely that the Fleischers were thinking of Kane when they designed Betty Boop. None of this detracts from the quality of the Betty Boop cartoons. They are still very entertaining today, many decades after they were created. The Fleischers and their crew were brilliant. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/27 "2014-11-06T13:07:55Z")
I’ve mentioned it above, but it ought to be re-stated – Mae Questel didn’t always voice Betty Boop. The Cabarga book lists others, as does the Wikipedia entry: > [@](#): > > Betty’s voice was first performed by Margie Hines, and was later performed by several different voice actresses, including Kate Wright, Bonnie Poe, Ann Rothschild (also known as Little Ann Little), and most notably, Mae Questel. Questel, who began voicing Betty Boop in 1931, continued with the role until her death in 1998. Today, Betty is voiced by Tress MacNeille, Sandy Fox and Cindy Robinson[9] in commercials. Bonnie Poe, besides voicing Betty in the cartoons, also portrayed Betty in live-action. She’s the Betty in the _Hollywood on Parade_ episode that features Betty Boop meeting Dracula (played by Bela Lugosi!) A lot of websites, commenting on this short, say it’s Mae Questel, because they apparently think she’s the only Betty. Ain’t so. But Mae was the most common of the Bettys. She also had a long film career afterwards. I recall seeing her in flicks in the 1970s and 1980s (And she was in commercials, too. She was “Aunt Bluebell” in ads for Scott Paper Towels.) I admit I can’t tell the different Betty voices apart. It’s different with the Popeye voices – there were at least three of them during Fleischer’s heyday, and they all sound different. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/28 "2014-11-06T14:49:59Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > I’ll see your _Bimbo’s Initiation_ and raise you [_Swing You Sinners_.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNttqN1wUMY) Poor Bimbo. :eek: You really, _really_ would not want to be trapped in a Fleischer cartoon world! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/29 "2014-11-06T14:55:39Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Poor Bimbo. :eek: > > You really, _really_ would not want to be trapped in a Fleischer cartoon world! 😃 Fleischer didn’t have a monopoly on surreal. Some of Bob Clampett’s cartoons for Warner, and Tex Avery’s for Warner and later MGM were extremely weird. Check out **Porky in Wackyland** or **The Big Snooze** [https://search.yahoo.com/search;\_ylt=AwrBT7QFdFtUVYgAtiFXNyoA;\_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZANicWlLdWhLM1RCZVNaNnVjbVJIUmFBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwMxBG9yaWdpbgNzZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzE3BHF1ZXJ5A1Bvcmt5IGkgV2Fja3lsYW5kBHRfc3RtcAMxNDE1Mjg1NDgz?p=Porky+i+Wackyland&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1](https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AwrBT7QFdFtUVYgAtiFXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZANicWlLdWhLM1RCZVNaNnVjbVJIUmFBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwMxBG9yaWdpbgNzZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzE3BHF1ZXJ5A1Bvcmt5IGkgV2Fja3lsYW5kBHRfc3RtcAMxNDE1Mjg1NDgz?p=Porky+i+Wackyland&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1) [https://search.yahoo.com/search;\_ylt=AwrBT7QFdFtUVYgAtiFXNyoA;\_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZANlZS56QWFSSVI1YVJ6TlguNVNZUE1BBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwM1BG9yaWdpbgNzZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzE0BHF1ZXJ5A1RoZSBCaWcgU25vb3plBHRfc3RtcAMxNDE1Mjg1NTk0?p=The+Big+Snooze&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1](https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AwrBT7QFdFtUVYgAtiFXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZANlZS56QWFSSVI1YVJ6TlguNVNZUE1BBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwM1BG9yaWdpbgNzZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDBHFzdHJsAzE0BHF1ZXJ5A1RoZSBCaWcgU25vb3plBHRfc3RtcAMxNDE1Mjg1NTk0?p=The+Big+Snooze&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1) Or **Bad Luck Blacie** , or any of the zillion variations on “Little Red Riding Hood” Avery did. Or his **Symphony in Slang** [https://search.yahoo.com/search;\_ylt=AwrBT7QFdFtUVYgAtiFXNyoA;\_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZAM0SUppNHhsNVRDU2RDckx0eG9Da2FBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwMxMARvcmlnaW4Dc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAwRxc3RybAMxOARxdWVyeQNUZXggQXZlcnkgQ2FydG9vbnMEdF9zdG1wAzE0MTUyODU2MjI-?p=Tex+Avery+Cartoons&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1](https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AwrBT7QFdFtUVYgAtiFXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZAM0SUppNHhsNVRDU2RDckx0eG9Da2FBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwMxMARvcmlnaW4Dc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAwRxc3RybAMxOARxdWVyeQNUZXggQXZlcnkgQ2FydG9vbnMEdF9zdG1wAzE0MTUyODU2MjI-?p=Tex+Avery+Cartoons&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1) [https://search.yahoo.com/search;\_ylt=AwrBT7QFdFtUVYgAtiFXNyoA;\_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZANfelp4eGlpRlM5R3Q4X3lDRmFMcWFBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwMxMARvcmlnaW4Dc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAwRxc3RybAMxNwRxdWVyeQNTeW1waG9ueSBpbiBTbGFuZwR0X3N0bXADMTQxNTI4NTY4OQ--?p=Symphony+in+Slang&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1](https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AwrBT7QFdFtUVYgAtiFXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZANfelp4eGlpRlM5R3Q4X3lDRmFMcWFBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwMxMARvcmlnaW4Dc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAwRxc3RybAMxNwRxdWVyeQNTeW1waG9ueSBpbiBTbGFuZwR0X3N0bXADMTQxNTI4NTY4OQ--?p=Symphony+in+Slang&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1) And, of course, there’s Chuck Jones’ classic **Duck Amuck** [https://search.yahoo.com/search;\_ylt=AwrBT7QFdFtUVYgAtiFXNyoA;\_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZANZSFdhTXAyUFJPU2VjekQwTkx6VmhBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwMxMARvcmlnaW4Dc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAwRxc3RybAMxMARxdWVyeQNEdWNrIEFtdWNrBHRfc3RtcAMxNDE1Mjg1NzI5?p=Duck+Amuck&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1](https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AwrBT7QFdFtUVYgAtiFXNyoA;_ylc=X1MDMjc2NjY3OQRfcgMyBGZyA3lmcC10LTkwMQRncHJpZANZSFdhTXAyUFJPU2VjekQwTkx6VmhBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwMxMARvcmlnaW4Dc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9vLmNvbQRwb3MDMARwcXN0cgMEcHFzdHJsAwRxc3RybAMxMARxdWVyeQNEdWNrIEFtdWNrBHRfc3RtcAMxNDE1Mjg1NzI5?p=Duck+Amuck&fr2=sb-top-search&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/30 "2014-11-06T15:19:49Z")
My fave Betty Boop clips here, in this “banned for sexual content” clip: [BETTY BOOP BANNED CARTOON - Sexy - Nude - Behind the Scenes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Doy5q6EUwT0) ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/31 "2014-11-06T15:28:12Z")
[Koko’s Earth Control.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ysCS1NB0zE) Music by Paul Whiteman. Just like Stimpy can’t resist pushing the big candylike button, Koko’s dog can’t resist pulling the lever that ends the world 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/32 "2014-11-06T18:02:53Z")
I suspect the reason the animation in the Fleischer cartoons was so good is the same as the one for Disney’s: the animators had yet to form (or join) a union and were thus (a) cheap to employ—you could hire **lots** of them—and (b) required to put in many hours of overtime with minimal (if any) compensation. I love all the Fleischer cartoons. I have a bunch of Popeyes and (I think) all of the adventures of Superman on DVD. _ **Hoppity Goes to Town** _ is another underappreciated classic. I saw _ **Gulliver’s Travels** _ on TV at Christmastime when I was three or four. Due to the rotoscoped scenes, I remembered it as a live-action flick until I saw it again when I was about 30. Imagine the shock I had when I saw it was all animation! ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/33 "2014-11-06T18:27:25Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I suspect the reason the animation in the Fleischer cartoons was so good is the same as the one for Disney’s: the animators had yet to form (or join) a union and were thus (a) cheap to employ—you could hire **lots** of them—and (b) required to put in many hours of overtime with minimal (if any) compensation. > > I love all the Fleischer cartoons. I have a bunch of Popeyes and (I think) all of the adventures of Superman on DVD. _ **Hoppity Goes to Town** _ is another underappreciated classic. > > I saw _ **Gulliver’s Travels** _ on TV at Christmastime when I was three or four. Due to the rotoscoped scenes, I remembered it as a live-action flick until I saw it again when I was about 30. Imagine the shock I had when I saw it was all animation! One of the things that struck me when I read Cabarga’s book about the Fleischer studio was his description of how, when people from Disney visited, the animators would gather around and press sketches into his hand, evidently signaling their availability. People _wanted_ to work for Disney. I’m not sure why. This persisted even after Fleischer studios moved from New York City to Florida. And Fleischer had union problems and strikes, but so did Disney. I love **Gulliver’s TRavels** by the way (not **Hoppity** , though), and think it still doesn’t get enough respect from the critics. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/34 "2014-11-06T18:40:14Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > One of the things that struck me when I read Cabarga’s book about the Fleischer studio was his description of how, when people from Disney visited, the animators would gather around and press sketches into his hand, evidently signaling their availability. People _wanted_ to work for Disney. I’m not sure why. This persisted even after Fleischer studios moved from New York City to Florida. And Fleischer had union problems and strikes, but so did Disney. Well, Disney always was more of a “prestige” outfit, I think: First cartoon with sound, first character mass-marketed (Mickey Mouse single-handedly saved the Lionel Train Co. during the Depression), first full-length animated feature film, first (I think) Oscar for an animated film. Then there were films like _ **Victory through Air Power** _ that were produced during the war, the armed forces adopting Disney characters as mascots, and so on. On the other hand, Fleischer’s works were always much more biting and adult-oriented. I could understand them occupying more of a niche market than Disney’s. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/35 "2014-11-06T18:44:02Z")
Plus, California had long before replaced New York (and anywhere else on the East Coast) as the center of the film industry, both financially and—dare I say it?—creatively. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/36 "2014-11-06T18:49:17Z")
With respect to _ **Hoppity** _, there was a Sunday afternoon Kindercinema at the University of Wisconsin that I used to take my elder daughter to when I lived in Milwaukee. I saw once that they were showing something by that name, and I was expecting a marathon of Jay Ward’s old Hoppity Hooper cartoons. What a surprise the Fleischer film turned out to be! And they had at least a half-dozen episodes of Superman on the bill too! We were in cartoon heaven that day! ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/37 "2014-11-06T18:54:26Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Well, Disney always was more of a “prestige” outfit, I think: First cartoon with sound, first character mass-marketed (Mickey Mouse single-handedly saved the Lionel Train Co. during the Depression), first full-length animated feature film, first (I think) Oscar for an animated film. Then there were films like _ **Victory through Air Power** _ that were produced during the war, the armed forces adopting Disney characters as mascots, and so on. > > On the other hand, Fleischer’s works were always much more biting and adult-oriented. I could understand them occupying more of a niche market than Disney’s. I agree that Disney was a prestige outfit, but you could argue those points. As Cabarga points out, Disney, despite their claims _didn’t_ make the first sound cartoon. Mickey wasn’t the first mass-marketed character. Oswald the Lucky Rabbit certainly preceded him (in facvt, Mickey was invented when his distributor effectively took Oswald away from Disney). There’s even an argument that Disney’s wasn’t the first feature cartoon film – have a look here: > **[List of animated feature films before 1940](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animated_feature_films_before_1940)** > > A list of animated feature films released prior to 1940. > (The Life and Miracles of Jiggs) > Key: .mw-parser-output .legend{page-break-inside:avoid;break-inside:avoid-column}.mw-parser-output .legend-color{display:inline-block;min-width:1.25em;height:1.25em;line-height:1.25;margin:1px 0;text-align:center;border:1px solid black;background-color:transparent;color:black}.mw-parser-output .legend-text{} Film considered lost  But this is quibbling – Disney was the company that did this successfully first in the US and mostly in Europe, so they get the laurels. Fleischer was done in by Paramount, who had persuaded them to accept a loan and subordinate position to Paramount as a condition for backing the studio and the move to Florida – then called the loans in early, bankrupted the Fleischer Studio, and used the talent to create Famous Studios (which finished making the Superman series, and kept making Popeye cartoons into the 1950s). In a better world, Fleischer would have survived in Florida with more shorts and features, and been a competitor with Disney for much longer, if not up until the present day. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/38 "2014-11-06T18:58:38Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Fleischer was done in by Paramount, who had persuaded them to accept a loan and subordinate position to Paramount as a condition for backing the studio and the move to Florida – then called the loans in early, bankrupted the Fleischer Studio, and used the talent to create Famous Studios (which finished making the Superman series, and kept making Popeye cartoons into the 1950s). In a better world, Fleischer would have survived in Florida with more shorts and features, and been a competitor with Disney for much longer, if not up until the present day. I’ve heard of this, but I don’t know any of the details. I’ll have to find a copy of Cabarga’s book when I get back to Canada in December. It’ll make a nice Christmas present to myself. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/39 "2014-11-06T19:02:04Z")
I must admit, this thread’s an education. Keep it up! 🙂 When I have the chance, I’m looking over those links everyone has been kind enough to post. So much great animation I had no idea existed. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765/40 "2014-11-06T19:04:45Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I’ve heard of this, but I don’t know any of the details. I’ll have to find a copy of Cabarga’s book when I get back to Canada in December. It’ll make a nice Christmas present to myself. Actually, although Cabarga talks about the demise of the studio, I got the details of Paramount’s role from Richard Fleischer’s autobiography. Richard was Max’s son, who went on to become a noted director. (Among other things, he directed _20,000 Leagues Under the Sea_, for Disney, ironically.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/betty-boop-surrealist-masterpieces/703765.md?page=3)