# Between the victim and the criminal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2005, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822 "2005-10-05T01:56:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/81 "2005-10-15T00:39:10Z")
Actually, it’s not. The vehicle presumably has some sort of identification on it. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/82 "2005-10-15T00:42:10Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The very nature of the police make their relationship with the citizenry a hostile one. Horsecrap. It _can_ be one, but it is not neccssarily so, any more than a teacher/student, boss/subordinate, director/actor or any other relationship where one person directs, orders and can punish another. I have never once had a legitimate complaint about the attitude or professionalism of police – and I say that as someone who has, in my day, been arrested twice – knocked to the ground and cuffed on one occasion – and had my car towed away on another (basically leaving me standing by the side of the road). Believe me when I say I know what it feels like to be nervous every time you see a cop car. Sure I was pissed at the moment those things happened … but then I grew up and realized they were just doing their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/83 "2005-10-15T00:42:40Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Actually, it’s not. The vehicle presumably has some sort of identification on it. It is illegal in my state for me to use vehicle information to establish owner unless that information was furnished to me by the owner or I am filing a police report AGAINST the owner. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/84 "2005-10-15T00:48:01Z")
And who would be reporting that illegal act? ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/85 "2005-10-15T00:54:28Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > And who would be reporting that illegal act? Depends on how you would go about doing what you proposed. If you ruffled through their glove compartment looking for a phone number, probably the owner who catches you in the act (and if you’re in some states, legally shoots you in the face killing you on the spot). If you wrote down the VIN and the license plate number, went to the DMV and attempted to bribe a DMV agent into doing an illegal database search, the agent who you’ve attempted to bribe, possibly ruining his job and life. If you broke into a police station and attempted to use their computers, probably the police department themselves. So how WOULD YOU break that law, Monty? ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/86 "2005-10-15T00:57:52Z")
> [@furt](#): > > … but then I grew up and realized they were just doing their jobs. That’s bullshit and you know it! Even the military disallows “I was just following orders!” excuse. Now, they have a choice in every action they perform. They are human beings, and as such are accountable to the exact same standard of conduct as you and I. If their job positions put them in a hostile relationship with the people, they can quit their jobs, they can not do the act if they realize it’s unethical. Everything a police officer does to you is done by his or her volition and is something he or she considers the proper thing to do, just like everybody else. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/87 "2005-10-15T02:00:10Z")
> [@groman](#): > > That’s bullshit and you know it! No, I’m sorry, I don’t. I was arrested because I was breaking the law. I knew I was breaking the law, knew I would be arrested for breaking the law, and knew that any mature, objective person would say that I\* should \* be arrested. I was tackled and cuffed on one occasion becuase I tried to run away and evade punishment. They used force sufficient to restrain me, and no more. I promised I’d not run again, but they decided that I was not to be trusted; and I must allow that that was quite reasonable, since I was in fact lying. The cops took my car because I was caught driving on a suspended license; I was not to be allowed to drive my vehicle, and leaving it on the median would have impeded traffic. Again, I knew I was breaking the law. They were actually letting me off easy by not arresting me. In all cases, my immediate feelings involved being angry at the cops; but I soon realized that was a childish way of thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/88 "2005-10-15T02:02:34Z")
> [@groman](#): > > It is illegal in my state for me to use vehicle information to establish owner unless that information was furnished to me by the owner or I am filing a police report AGAINST the owner. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/89 "2005-10-15T02:06:05Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Cite? I was informed so by the person at the local DMV whilst attempting to do just what you described. No cite. I’d love to have somebody prove me wrong though… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/90 "2005-10-15T02:06:19Z")
> [@groman](#): > > That’s bullshit and you know it! Even the military disallows “I was just following orders!” excuse. Now, they have a choice in every action they perform. They are human beings, and as such are accountable to the exact same standard of conduct as you and I. If their job positions put them in a hostile relationship with the people, they can quit their jobs, they can not do the act if they realize it’s unethical. Everything a police officer does to you is done by his or her volition and is something he or she considers the proper thing to do, just like everybody else. There is a wide difference between “just doing their job” and “just following orders.” That’s especially true when those orders are lawful orders and their job requires them to follow lawful orders. The bit about disallowing “just following orders” applies to _unlawful_ orders. The crux of the matter is that it appears that you simply want the world to be set up so that you do not have to be accountable for your actions. I refer, of course, to the actions which you were caught engaging in and thus got reported for engaging in said actions. And I’m still chuckling over me being accused of being a Leftist. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/91 "2005-10-15T02:07:45Z")
What about all that debris? Was there nothing there that perchance had something akin to an address or phone number on it? And if you were so concerned about the debris, why not pick it up yourself? ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/92 "2005-10-15T02:16:51Z")
It wouldn’t be right for me to touch somebody elses property like that, nor examine it for personal information. What planet are you from? Where would it be ok to touch somebodies property like that? In a lot of places it’s legal to use lethal force to prevent you from touching somebody else’s property. And in fact, it could’ve been a crime scene. I don’t understand, are you just entertaining yourself by building strawmen and putting words in my mouth or do you genuinely not understand nor agree with my position? Do you really think that every law is ethical by definition, as you’ve implied countless number of times? Do you really think that every crime has to be reported? Would you report children stealing candy directly to the cops? Would you report somebody for being of another race IF that was against the law? Would you report somebody that you suspected was engaged in homosexual behavior because of their outward characteristic if that was illegal in your jurisdiction(as it was until last year in many places in the US)? Would you report an expired registration tag on a parked car directly to the authorities? If you think all those things could never be illegal in your jurisdiction, why do you think your government is perfect and will never pass a law you disagree with? ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/93 "2005-10-15T02:21:27Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I was arrested because I was breaking the law. I knew I was breaking the law, knew I would be arrested for breaking the law, and knew that any mature, objective person would say that I\* should \* be arrested. Of course, at the time of your actions you believed your actions were right, otherwise you would not do them, correct? So did your opinion on your actions change, or do you think people should get arrested for breaking the law even if they are right and the law wrong? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/94 "2005-10-15T02:26:48Z")
> [@groman](#): > > Of course, at the time of your actions you believed your actions were right, otherwise you would not do them, correct? Wow. No cost-benefit tradeoffs in your world? He took a gamble and lost. It wasn’t a matter of right and wrong, it was a matter of wanting to do something that carried risk. Take what you want, and pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/95 "2005-10-15T02:33:33Z")
I’m bored at the moment, so I have enough time to dissect your stunningly ignorant post. > [@groman](#): > > It wouldn’t be right for me to touch somebody elses property like that, nor examine it for personal information. According to you, apparently, it’s a danger or a hindrance to others and thus must be dealt with. > [@](#): > > What planet are you from? Earth. Try visiting it sometime. I like the place, and I especially like the state of California, my home for many years. > [@](#): > > Where would it be ok to touch somebodies property like that? In California, of course! There’s no problem with removing litter from the roads. > [@](#): > > In a lot of places it’s legal to use lethal force to prevent you from touching somebody else’s property. In California? Oh, please. > [@](#): > > And in fact, it could’ve been a crime scene. Right. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I don’t understand, are you just entertaining yourself by building strawmen Familiarize yourself with the English language, then. My position has nothing to do with strawmen nor bullying. > [@](#): > > and putting words in my mouth Prove I put words in your mouth or, better yet, apologize for that false accusation. > [@](#): > > or do you genuinely not understand nor agree with my position? I understand your position, ridiculous as it is. I obviously disagree with it and for the reasons I’ve indicated in this thread. > [@](#): > > Do you really think that every law is ethical by definition, as you’ve implied countless number of times? Zero is not countless. I have not implied that every law is ethical by definition. Please try to stop telling lies in GD. > [@](#): > > Do you really think that every crime has to be reported? Not by me personally; however, I have no problem with someone reporting a crime being committed. > [@](#): > > Would you report children stealing candy directly to the cops? Depends on the situation. Care to expand? > [@](#): > > Would you report somebody for being of another race IF that was against the law? Would you report somebody that you suspected was engaged in homosexual behavior because of their outward characteristic if that was illegal in your jurisdiction(as it was until last year in many places in the US)? If you’re wondering what a strawman is, this portion of your posting which I’ve just quoted above is exactly that. > [@](#): > > Would you report an expired registration tag on a parked car directly to the authorities? Yes, and I have done such a thing. Oddly enough, that was even part of my job, albeit I wasn’t a police officer at the time. > [@](#): > > If you think all those things could never be illegal in your jurisdiction, why do you think your government is perfect and will never pass a law you disagree with? This is also an example of both dishonesty and strawman. ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/96 "2005-10-15T02:37:59Z")
If you notice, I’m just asking. A strawman is a statement. Like when you said "Groman thinks… " or “Groman wants”… Those were strawmen. I’m genuinely curious because I do not understand how you can call my position more ignorant than yours. My position, in itself, is that crimes come in different flavors. Most of them should be reported, some of them it is wrong to report for some people in some situations. If you insist that I am wrong, then you are stating that either “No crimes are worth reporting!” or “All crimes are worth reporting!” Pick one, please. Otherwise, you agree with me, right? ---
**Author:** ![Seldarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Seldarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seldarin)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/97 "2005-10-15T02:47:39Z")
[QUOTE=groman] It wouldn’t be right for me to touch somebody elses property like that, nor examine it for personal information. What planet are you from? Where would it be ok to touch somebodies property like that? In a lot of places it’s legal to use lethal force to prevent you from touching somebody else’s property. And in fact, it could’ve been a crime scene. QUOTE] I’d have gotten the stuff out of the road. The reason for that being you’re not on their property in the road. Even putting it at the edge of the driveway wouldn’t have been. Right of way for roads varies from road to road, but it typically (Barring engineering error) goes at least eight to ten feet beyond the road edge. Whatever their deed might say, it isn’t their property. That or calling 'em in the middle of the night are the only two reasonable solutions to that problem that don’t involve police. I’d feel bad about touching others things, sure, but I’d feel worse if someone drove down the street and was hurt or killed because of stuff in the road. Then again, if you moved it personally, then you really COULD be arrested for obstruction of justice if it were a crime scene. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/98 "2005-10-15T02:49:22Z")
> [@groman](#): > > If you notice, I’m just asking. A strawman is a statement. Like when you said "Groman thinks… " or “Groman wants”… Those were strawmen. No, pretty much [not](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man). ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/99 "2005-10-15T03:08:40Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > If you’re wondering what a strawman is, this portion of your posting which I’ve just quoted above is exactly that. I think the latter part was a reasonable question: “Would you report somebody that you suspected was engaged in homosexual behavior because of their outward characteristic if that was illegal in your jurisdiction(as it was until last year in many places in the US)?” Suppose you were a person living in one of those places a few years ago, and you walked past a house where you suspected sodomy was going on inside. (Maybe you heard a faint groaning sound, or maybe the mailbox was open and you saw a copy of _Sodomy Weekly_ and connected the dots.) Would you agree that it’d be unethical to report the people in that house for engaging in consensual-but-illegal sex, or at least that you don’t have any duty to report them? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822/100 "2005-10-15T04:36:52Z")
> [@groman](#): > > If you notice, I’m just asking. A strawman is a statement. Like when you said "Groman thinks… " or “Groman wants”… Those were strawmen. Oddly enough, that’s not what I said. At least not an honest quoting of what I said. Please be so kind as to work on honest quoting. I deliberately used words to indicate appearance and opinion. [quote] I’m genuinely curious because I do not understand how you can call my position more ignorant than yours.[/quot e] Actually, I’m calling your “debating” dishonest. Your posting is what I called stunningly ignorant. > [@](#): > > My position, in itself, is that crimes come in different flavors. Most of them should be reported, some of them it is wrong to report for some people in some situations. The evidence at hand in this thread seems (look up that word, if you please, so when you quote the following, you’ll manage to quote it honestly) that the crimes you want reported are those that you aren’t committing. > [@](#): > > If you insist that I am wrong, then you are stating that either “No crimes are worth reporting!” or “All crimes are worth reporting!” Pick one, please. Otherwise, you agree with me, right? That’s not the way it works. You’re attempting yet another version of “Yes or no, have you stopped beating your wife?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-the-victim-and-the-criminal/324822.md?page=6)