# Between you and I **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 15, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-you-and-i/731417 "2015-09-15T22:15:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-you-and-i/731417/1 "2015-09-15T22:15:42Z")
I’ve seen the usage “between you and I” many times in print, including in places that should have had the benefit of professional editing. Is this accepted usage now? What determines whether a phrase that was once grammatically incorrect is now okay? (I confess that “between you and I” grates on me. After all, no one says “just between we.” But “to boldly go” sounds okay to me. I had a friend once defend the incorrectness of split infinitives in part by saying that “to be or to not be” sounds wrong. After thinking about it, I realized that “to be or to not-be” may actually be better than how WS put it.) ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-you-and-i/731417/2 "2015-09-15T22:28:33Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > What determines whether a phrase that was once grammatically incorrect is now okay? The people who speak the language in question. That’s really all that matters. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-you-and-i/731417/3 "2015-09-15T22:31:18Z")
Sure, languages evolve, but was “between you and I” _ever_ correct? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-you-and-i/731417/4 "2015-09-15T22:32:36Z")
I know it isn’t your main question but split infinitives are not grammatically wrong although they are often stylistically questionable. There has never been a true rule against them in English despite what your schoolteachers claimed. It is simply easier to say that it is a rule in the early grades rather than try to cover the intricacies of the myriad of exceptions and counterexamples. > **[Split Infinitives - Quick and Dirty Tips](https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/articles/split-infinitives/)** > > In this episode, Grammar Girl shares more information about what split infinitives are and how to use them. “Between you and I” is simply grammatically incorrect and always has been. > **[Grammar Girl - Quick and Dirty Tips](https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/grammar-girl/)** > > Mignon Fogarty is the founder of the Quick and Dirty Tips network and creator of Grammar Girl, which has been named one of Writer’s Digest’s 101 best websites for writers multiple times. She is also an inductee in the Podcasting Hall of Fame. "So now we can move on to “Between You and I” and figure out why it’s wrong. Between is a preposition, just as on, above, over, and of are prepositions. Because prepositions usually either describe a relationship, or show possession, they don’t act alone; they often answer questions like Where? and When? For example, if I said, “Keep that secret between you and me,” between describes where the secret is to be kept. If I said, “I’ll tell you the secret on July 5,” on describes when the secret will be revealed." ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-you-and-i/731417/5 "2015-09-15T22:36:38Z")
“Between you and I” is not correct. The last word is the object of a preposition and should be “me”. People who write that are mistakenly getting confused with something like “he is richer than you and I,” where “I” is correct. As **Baron Greenback** insinuates, it might become correct sometime in the future through repeated misuse, but it ain’t there yet. ---
**Author:** ![Ornery\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/da6949/32.png) [@Ornery\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ornery_Bob)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-you-and-i/731417/6 "2015-09-15T22:49:16Z")
You can also turn it around without changing the meaning and the correct grammar pops right out at you. “Between me and you, this job sucks.” “Between I and you, this job sucks.” Unless you’re Rastafarian, in which case it becomes, “Between I and I.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-you-and-i/731417/7 "2015-09-15T22:51:02Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > As **Baron Greenback** insinuates, it might become correct sometime in the future through repeated misuse, but it ain’t there yet. There’s no “correct”, not really. There are style guides for publications and the like, but for people just communicating, eh, no. I do regret that the may/can war has been lost though :mad: ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-you-and-i/731417/8 "2015-09-15T23:06:42Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > There’s no “correct”, not really. There are style guides for publications and the like, but for people just communicating, eh, no. I get what you’re saying, but I think “correct” and “accepted” implies some type of style guide. I could say to you “me want now dinner” and you’d know what I meant, but you can’t say that is correct even though we’re just communicating. > [@](#): > > I do regret that the may/can war has been lost though :mad: You and me both (you and I both?). I had an editor who drilled the difference into me several years ago. Up until fairly recently, I valiantly changed “may” to “can” everywhere until finally giving up. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/between-you-and-i/731417/9 "2015-09-15T23:22:45Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > Is this accepted usage now? What determines whether a phrase that was once grammatically incorrect is now okay? I do, but I am usually too busy to police the polloi. And I have noticed that, when they really get their incorrect conventions driven into broad-enough usage, lo and behold that usage becomes correct. So one way to look at it is that at least some proportion of the grammatically incompetent are simply ahead of their time.