# Bewildered Bush-Bashers' Beastly Barrage of Backstabbing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 7, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323 "2003-06-07T19:19:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/41 "2003-06-08T15:47:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*-- Bush showed too big a “package” in his flight suit. > > . \*\* If I’d just spent $70 Billion dollars, lots of which would be going to my buddies, I’d probably have a woody too. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/42 "2003-06-08T16:20:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bordelond \* > \*\*I got cut off somewhere. let me continue: > > I think that the mobile labs were designed in such a way that they could be completely cleaned out and converted to ordinary-looking rigs within a matter 0f 1-2 hours at most – maybe even faster. > > I think that a big part of Iraq’s cloaking techniques involved creating B&C weapons at sites that also produced legitimate industrial chemicals – especially when the legit chemicals were chemically very close to chemical weapons. Whenever I hear of a site containing “only” pesticide residue, or something like that, in my mind that was a certain weapons site. \*\* As someone who was firmly against the war, i still won’t be very surprised if they _do_ end up finding evidence of some sort of WMD capability. Saddam Hussein was a bad guy, and i wouldn’t be at all surprised if he was developing chemical, nuclear or biological weapons. However, the key point for me in all this–a point which **december** conveniently glosses over–is not whether there are or are not WMDs, but the fact that the “intelligence” and the “evidence” that was used by the Bush Administration as justification for invasion is now appearing increasingly to have been biased, manipulated or even outright fabricated. At a minimum, it appears that the Administration was misinformed by the people who should have been providing it with information. If that’s not the case, we have to consider the possibility that the Administration was wilfully misinterpreting the information it had, or that it was putting pressure on the intelligence community to come up with the “right” intelligence. Whether WMDs are actually found in Iraq or not is of less importance, or should be of less importance to the American people, than the fact that their own government seems to have deliberately misled the people with false information in an effort to justify a preemptive attack on Iraq. If the police obtain a search warrant based on false premises, and then find drugs in the house, that discovery doesn’t make the initial search legally or morally justified. Similarly in Iraq, the discovery of WMDs will not provide _ex post facto_ justification for the invasion. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/43 "2003-06-08T16:30:26Z")
Can we at this point let it be established that pretty much any UK intelligence about WMD, on which the US leant heavily, has now been _acknowledged_ by the UK administration to be [bunkum](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/06/08/nwmd08.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/06/08/ixportaltop.html). > [@](#): > > Tony Blair’s closest adviser has written a personal letter apologising to Sir Richard Dearlove, the chief of the Secret Intelligence Service, for discrediting the service with the release to journalists last January of the so-called “dodgy dossier” on Iraq and weapons of mass destruction. > > The disclosure that Alastair Campbell, the Prime Minister’s director of strategy and communications, apologised to the head of MI6 for the dossier, Iraq: Its Infrastructure of Concealment, Deception and Intimidation, will fuel claims that Downing Street was involved in “doctoring” intelligence reports before the war. I’m not denigrating UK intelligence services, but what happens when the information they provided is ignored, obfuscated, exaggerated, spun, and/or fabricated by politicians to fit an outcome that was clearly predetermined. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/44 "2003-06-08T16:30:28Z")
All those sailors, in T shirts and stuff, you don’t think maybe…Naaahh. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/45 "2003-06-08T16:42:27Z")
Howard, of course, is also full of shit: [http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/06/07/1054700432308.html](http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/06/07/1054700432308.html) > [@](#): > > Mr Howard distanced his government from allegations in the United States and Britain that intelligence gathered by spy agencies about Iraq was manipulated to suit the US and British governments. > > But he conceded Australia had followed intelligence advice from the US and UK in the leadup to the war. > > “There was no doctoring of intelligence advice by the government I lead,” Mr Howard told a prime minister’s breakfast at the Liberal Party’s national convention in Adelaide today. > > “The advice was … carefully based on the information that properly flowed to the Australian intelligence agency by virtue of the very close intelligence links we have with the United States and the United Kingdom.” [http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/30/1054177726543.htm](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/30/1054177726543.htm) > [@](#): > > May 31 2003 > Australia’s spies knew the United States was lying about Iraq’s WMD programme. So why didn’t the Government choose to believe them? Andrew Wilkie writes. > > 'Intelligence" was how the Americans described the material accumulating on Iraq from their super-sophisticated spy systems. But to analysts at the Office of National Assessments in Canberra, a decent chunk of the growing pile looked like rubbish. In their offices on the top floor of the drab ASIO building, ONA experts found much of the US material worthy only of the delete button or the classified waste chute to the truck-sized shredder in the basement. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/46 "2003-06-08T16:43:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mhendo \* > \*\*However, the key point for me in all this–a point which **december** conveniently glosses over–is not whether there are or are not WMDs, but the fact that the “intelligence” and the “evidence” that was used by the Bush Administration as justification for invasion is now appearing increasingly to have been biased, manipulated or even outright fabricated. \*\* This makes sense to me. I’ll bet the intelligence assets on the ground in Iraq were pretty frustrated at having so much circumstantial evidence, yet nothing they could really sink their teeth into. Combine that frustration with pressure from Rumsfeld, _et al_, to find something … I can see where the truth-stretching started. There was probably a feel also out in the field of “Well, fuck it – we have 95% of a smoking gun. The rest will surely fall into place very soon. Then our current fudging won’t matter.” Except that 5% never came. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/47 "2003-06-08T16:49:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \* > \*\*Wait… I think I’m catching on… let me try… > > :strains: > > Well, I’ve got a nosebleed, anyway. I must be getting close. \*\* Yup … on this matter, you may fairly consider me a crank. Not an intractible one, though. I might change my mind eventually given high enough mounds of evidence, but I want a LOT more time (measured in years). Two months smells hasty to me. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/48 "2003-06-08T16:54:00Z")
Fucking fuck fucking fuck-fuckers fucking fucked… no hang on, I haven’t got the hang of this at all. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/49 "2003-06-08T16:54:31Z")
“Can we at this point let it be established that pretty much any UK intelligence about WMD” should read “Can we at this point let it be established that pretty much any _publically declared_ UK intelligence about WMD”. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/50 "2003-06-08T17:04:32Z")
**bordelond** , s’all good, like the kids say. God knows I’ve been known to embrace my inner crank from time-to-time. (Maybe I should rephrase that…) ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/51 "2003-06-08T17:05:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bordelond \* > \*\*I got cut off somewhere. let me continue: > > I think that the mobile labs were designed in such a way that they could be completely cleaned out and converted to ordinary-looking rigs within a matter 0f 1-2 hours at most – maybe even faster. > > I think that a big part of Iraq’s cloaking techniques involved creating B&C weapons at sites that also produced legitimate industrial chemicals – especially when the legit chemicals were chemically very close to chemical weapons. Whenever I hear of a site containing “only” pesticide residue, or something like that, in my mind that was a certain weapons site. > > To be continued … \*\* I’ve run out of steam with this particular series of posts – a night away from the thread cost me a degree of fervor (which seems to have been only temporary anyway … I certainly don’t mull this topic over all the time). I don’t think I have much to add after all, save perhaps the results of a private brainstorming session in which I think up ways Iraq may have conceivably hidden their B&C weapons. I’m sure the collective SMDB couldn’t yawn any more dispassionately. I can’t prove any of my musings, naturally. They make sense _to me_, but most others only look askance. So, when forced to deal with the facts _so far apparent_ in this matter, the best thing for me personally to do is just to withold ultimate judgement for the time being, in the hopes that still more shoes may drop. I feel like I have some time for all this to percolate. The next presidential election is almost 17 months away. As of now, my 2004 vote for Bush hangs in the balance. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/52 "2003-06-08T17:42:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*“Can we at this point let it be established that pretty much any UK intelligence about WMD” should read “Can we at this point let it be established that pretty much any _publically declared_ UK intelligence about WMD”. \*\* Are you saying that it is still “Blair’s position” that they have intelligence but that it is too sensitve to divulge? How could that be the case? If the alleged WMDs are in Iraq, and Iraq is controlled by the allies, how could such information still be sensitive? If intelligence source X has said “there are WMDs at such-and-such”, well, you’d just go there and see wouldn’t you. So, in answer to your question, I would say “probably not”. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/53 "2003-06-08T17:46:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **One cannot blame Bush for believing what everyone else believed.** And if everyone else jumped off a cliff, would Bush jump too because everyone else was doing it? (And if so, can I watch? Please?) ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/54 "2003-06-08T18:00:40Z")
Look deep within your heart december. I know there is still good in you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/55 "2003-06-08T18:16:18Z")
Until he finds it. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/56 "2003-06-08T19:35:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*Howard, of course, is also full of shit: > > [http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/06/07/1054700432308.htmlhttp://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/30/1054177726543.htm](http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/06/07/1054700432308.htmlhttp://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/30/1054177726543.htm) \*\* Christ he really is a creepy little toad isn’t he? He’s the only shadow on my bright new future of immigrating to Australia. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/57 "2003-06-09T00:01:18Z")
It took some time searching the archive for an adequate quote. But I think it was worth it. From [this thread:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163045) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Actually, we do not know that Saddam will give up his WMDs in any circumstances at all. \ It’s more likely that cooperation will engender more cooperation. **Especially, after we actually display the huge stores of WMDs. At that point, doves will be embarassed and hawks will be vindicated.** \ A failure to make war engenders these same risks; it delays the time to a point where Iraq might finally have nukes, making the risk much greater. Posted Feb. 14th 2003. Bolding mine. It should be noted that **december** was responding to another post, so quotes are taken out of context. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/58 "2003-06-09T00:31:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > Originally posted by december > > > [@](#): > > > > Especially, after we actually display the huge stores of WMDs. Yep, I was wrong in this prediction. I admit it. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/59 "2003-06-09T12:01:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Great Unwashed \* > \*\*Are you saying that it is still “Blair’s position” that they have intelligence but that it is too sensitve to divulge? How could that be the case? If the alleged WMDs are in Iraq, and Iraq is controlled by the allies, how could such information still be sensitive? \*\* What I meant was that I doubt MI6 would divulge everything they knew on Iraq, even after occupation. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323/60 "2003-06-09T13:22:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > Your harping on the 170 k figure is a fine little rhetorical device. An initial estimate, yes it was off, however the reality that it reflected is that massive looting occured when it need not have. Similarly, the pre-war estimate of Iraq’s WMD stocks may have been off, but the reality was that Iraq was not complying with various UN resolutions regarding WMDs. > [@](#): > > Regular military I know round these parts are categorical they need more people. And, they are now getting more people, according to news reports I’ve seen. > [@](#): > > American planning was clearly inadequate, do you actually deny that? If by, “inadaquate”, you mean, “failed to meet utopian perfection,” then I agree. However, I think the planning was very good indeed. The point of this thread is that _some people are striving to find every possible imperfection in this war, and they are ignoring all the major aspects that succeeded. Why are they doing this?_ > [@](#): > > The best case is that the evidence was exagerated by people who believed more than analysed. The worst case is deliberate falsehoods were used. Actually, the best case is honest error, as occurred with the count of missing artifacts. The second-best case is that intelligence analysts, who inevitably work from uncertain information, tended to interpret it in the light of the widespread belief that Iraq had lots of WMDs. Look at [how many decades it took for people to stop seeing Martian canals, after Giovanni Schiaparelli’s initial error.](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_102.html) I suppose our basic disagreement is whether the war in Iraq was or was not good for the world. I think it did far more good than harm. You don’t. BTW I have said that the two trailers were mobile biological weapons labs, but there’s an alternative theory which may make more sense, considering the weather in Iraq. Maybe they were actually Good Humor ice cream trucks. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bewildered-bush-bashers-beastly-barrage-of-backstabbing/180323.md?page=4)