# Bias towards white antiracists

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285>\
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion\
**Created:** [May 12, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285 "2014-05-12T16:02:20Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 4

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**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/61 "2014-05-13T14:44:49Z")

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> [@Malthus](#):
>
> Well, crap. I had a whole explaination planned. 😃

It was totally going to be a winner.

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**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/62 "2014-05-13T14:44:51Z")

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> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> Racism can be a lived experience for whites too. After all, I should hope that the most vocal white antiracists ain’t just pulling stuff from their buttocks when they talk about it; I have to assume they are drawing from direct and indirect observations much like black people do. It’s just that the white person often seems to be deferred to as the arbiter of truth, while the black person’s opinion is regarded with suspicion.
> 
> To be completely transparent,_I don’t think I’m immune from this phenomenon despite being a black woman_. Scary, huh? I believe the Tim Wise’s of the world are working something that’s part of everyone’s social programming. White male privilege is in effect here, not because “whites trust other whites” and not because of the “arguing against self-interest” issue either. It is deeper than that, IMO.

Not being Black, I have no insight into this phenom.

Not sure it helps, but being Jewish, I often will grant non-Jews some extra legitimacy when they argue against anti-Semitism: in the back of my mind, I do consider that Jews like myself may have a bit of an axe to grind on the subject, and a non-Jewish perspective acts as a reality check.

OTOH, I do not believe I otherwise grant non-Jews any “privilege” over me and Jews like me - if anything, I have to control a regrettable tendancy towards ‘group pride’ - that is, the tendancy that exists within the Jewish community (and which, to an extent, I share if I do not deliberately control it) to believe that Jews are simply _better_ than non-Jews as a group - smarter, better educated, more successful. In fact, even the anti-Semitic tropes reinforce this group pride to an extent.

As I said, this may not be helpful, because the experiences of anti-Semitism and anti-Black racism are fundamentally different.

However, it does show that in other contexts, granting those not adversely affected by a prejudice a certain boost to legitimacy concerning its existence and extent makes some sense … the notion is that, as they are not themselves affected (except as possible perpetrators), so the idea goes, they are less likely to have an axe to grind.

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**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/63 "2014-05-13T14:54:53Z")

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> [@Malthus](#):
>
> OTOH, I do not believe I otherwise grant non-Jews any “privilege” over me and Jews like me - if anything, I have to control a regrettable tendancy towards ‘group pride’ - that is, the tendancy that exists within the Jewish community (and which, to an extent, I share if I do not deliberately control it) to believe that Jews are simply _better_ than non-Jews as a group - smarter, better educated, more successful. In fact, even the anti-Semitic tropes reinforce this group pride to an extent.
> 
> **As I said, this may not be helpful, because the experiences of anti-Semitism and anti-Black racism are fundamentally different**.

It’s very helpful, as it’s directly relevant to what I’m talking about. I have not been programmed to see blacks as better than whites, at least not with respect to value-laden attributes like intelligence and drive. (I do think blacks are better at recognizing racial discrimination, but ain’t nobody pounding their chests over this achievement.) The society at large isn’t programmed to see blacks as morally or intellectually superior to whites either; it’s programmed to see them as the opposite.

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**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/64 "2014-05-13T16:15:25Z")

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> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> I (try to) exploit the hell out of it where possible. The goal is to get people to stop being biased, right? If the status quo as a result of the bias is that I’m the only sort of person who is “allowed” to say the bias is bullshit… well, I can understand why you don’t particularly enjoy that arrangement. Neither do I; the internet’s become very good at accusing people of “white knighting” and that’s become a pretty loaded term that there’s almost no defense to by now, in part because it’s a real thing that happens. But it can’t be the case that it would be better not to take advantage of the fact that _somebody_ can say something about it, can it?

What if whites made a point of talking about this phenomenon in conversations about white privilege? Could that help? It would center the magnifying glass smack dab on the audience, rather than focus it on “safe” targets like faceless institutions and the media. I’m starting not to think it’s enough to just talk about bias without personalizing it and forcing some introspection.

Jon Stewart calling out how Hillary Clinton is treated is great; by lending his voice to the antisexist choir, he is highlighting an example of how gender bias is harmful and using his power for good. And it was great that **Shakes** pointed out what Stewart illustrated on his show. That said…it is interesting to ponder whether Rachel Maddow illustrating the same thing, using the same evidence Jon did, would have snagged **Shake’s** attention the same way. Would he have added her commentary to our discussion, or would be putting a plug in for her have been seen as less value-added, less eye-opening, less interesting?

It would be powerful if Jon Stewart could highlight _this_ form of discrimination, and then, in classic Jon Stewart meta-like fashion, point out how his white guy status enables him to point these things out without anyone getting mad. It would be difficult to pull this off, but he’s smart enough to do it.

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**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/65 "2014-05-13T16:23:26Z")

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> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> Come up with a toned down version, and I’ll bite. My point is that it’s very difficult to come up with one because flipping the hypothetical is intrinsically flawed when it comes to this subject.
> 
> But I’ll be nice and come up with a scenario for you.

Weird thing is that I suggested two examples in the very post you quoted, and you responded by clipping them out of the quote and starting your post with “come up with a toned down version …” Odd.

> [@](#):
>
> Let’s say two pundits are on the radio talking about how often black folks exaggerate reports of racism to gain sympathy points or deflect responsibility. One is a white pundit, the other is black. I honestly can say I wouldn’t be more apt to listen to the black person. It wouldn’t occur to me to assign more weight to their position because they are arguing against their “self-interest”. And if I’m going to be 100% honest, I’m more likely to question the motives and underlying psychology of the black guy, not the white one.

IMO this is illogical and most people would not share your attitude (as a general rule).

But I intended only a thought experiment. If that’s your story and you’re sticking to it, then I have nothing further to add WRT this.

> [@](#):
>
> Maybe this confession marks me as the biased one, but at least I’m self aware enough to admit it.

FWIW I don’t think such an attitude amounts to bias, but if it did, I don’t think being “self aware enough to admit it” gets you far.

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**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/66 "2014-05-13T16:34:12Z")

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> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#):
>
> IMO this is illogical and most people would not share your attitude (as a general rule).

Why do you think it’s illogical? Why do you think most people would not share this attitude?

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**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/67 "2014-05-13T16:54:28Z")

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> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> Why do you think it’s illogical? Why do you think most people would not share this attitude?

I think he’s wrong. As I said upthread, if someone goes against their interest, it’s just as likely to lead to a “Damn, this person is stupid/crazy” as it is a “Oh, such wisdom and it must be true because it’s against their interest!”

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**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/68 "2014-05-13T16:59:22Z")

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> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> I think he’s wrong. As I said upthread, if someone goes against their interest, it’s just as likely to lead to a “Damn, this person is stupid/crazy” as it is a “Oh, such wisdom and it must be true because it’s against their interest!”

See: Coulter, Ann; Schafly, Phyllis  
See: West, Allen; Thomas, Clarence

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**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/69 "2014-05-13T17:11:07Z")

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Sure, there are things that you don’t automatically accept just because they’re incongruous with a person’s expected self-interest. It’s just a question of whether there’s any more reason to accept it than otherwise.

And, on the other hand, that phrase “against self-interest” comes from a real rule of evidence. Courts will admit a hearsay statement as reliable if it’s against a person’s self interest where they wouldn’t admit it if it were self-serving.

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**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/70 "2014-05-13T17:22:42Z")

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> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> Sure, there are things that you don’t automatically accept just because they’re incongruous with a person’s expected self-interest. It’s just a question of whether there’s any more reason to accept it than otherwise.

Sure, but I think Malthus is right that this “more reason” is probably whether I’m inclined to believe them in the first place.

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**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/71 "2014-05-13T20:06:43Z")

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I don’t think white “anti-racists” get any undue respect that isn’t given to black anti-racists. Liberals agree with other liberals and hate conservatives, regardless of race. Conservatives agree with other conservatives and hate liberals, regardless of race.

There is NO white person anywhere who’d mock a pro-affirmative action argument from Al Sharpton but embrace that same argument if it came from Mario Cuomo or Jon Stewart.

There is NO white person anywhere who’d slam Jesse Jackson but embrace Andrew Hacker. NO white person dismisses arguments from Ta-Nehisi Coates that he’d willingly accept from Paul Krugman.

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**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/72 "2014-05-13T20:11:44Z")

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> [@astorian](#):
>
> There is NO white person anywhere who’d slam Jesse Jackson but embrace Andrew Hacker. NO white person dismisses arguments from Ta-Nehisi Coates that he’d willingly accept from Paul Krugman.

They wouldn’t call Krugman a poverty pimp or a race hustler. Does that count for anything?

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**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/73 "2014-05-13T20:14:24Z")

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Not IMO.

Krugman is not a guy whose career and reputation are built primarily on poverty pimping or race hustling. Like him or not, the guy is a genuinely accomplished man.

It’s not about skin color, at least in that example.

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**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/74 "2014-05-13T20:21:36Z")

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I believe you just knee-jerk reacted to a hypothetical reaction to a hypothetical knee-jerk reaction.

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**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/75 "2014-05-13T20:21:57Z")

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I think white “race hustlers” are usually just called racists. Marley, can you point to some Krugman comment (or your favorite white pundit) that would get him called a poverty pimp if he was black?

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**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/76 "2014-05-13T20:22:13Z")

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> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#):
>
> Krugman is not a guy whose career and reputation are built primarily on poverty pimping or race hustling.

In other words, you believe those terms are real things and legitimate criticisms. Thank you for demonstrating my point.

> [@CarnalK](#):
>
> I think white “race hustlers” are usually just called racists.

In other words, you agree that only black people get called pimps and hustlers? How interesting. I think that’s the end of that argument…

> [@](#):
>
> Marley, can you point to some Krugman comment that would get him called a poverty pimp if he was black?

I’m not sure why I need to look when the term is used against pretty much any black writer who writers about race. Still, I bet [this one would do the trick](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/28/opinion/28krugman.html). [Or this one](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/07/the-real-real-america/).

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**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/77 "2014-05-13T20:26:09Z")

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Really? Every black guy who’s talked about race has been called a poverty pimp? Sounds like bullshit, but I am not doing your work for you.

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**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/78 "2014-05-13T20:29:54Z")

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> [@Marley23](#):
>
> In other words, you believe those terms are real things and legitimate criticisms. Thank you for demonstrating my point.

Seemed like your point earlier was about whether a white person like Krugman would be called thoser terms for making arguments similar to some black guy. That has not been demonstrated.

I’m not sure what point you think _has_ been demonstrated. And I’m inclined to think you didn’t really have a point, beyond what you thought was a pithy one-liner.

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**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/79 "2014-05-13T20:35:50Z")

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> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#):
>
> Seemed like your point earlier was about whether a white person like Krugman would be called thoser terms for making arguments similar to some black guy.

My point was that black people who discuss these arguments get called racially loaded names and white people don’t. **CarnalK** seems to have acknowledged that point, whereas you’ve confirmed you believe these are real things and legitimate terms.

> [@CarnalK](#):
>
> Really? Every black guy who’s talked about race has been called a poverty pimp? Sounds like bullshit, but I am not doing your work for you.

I said pretty much, not every. But go ahead and name a black writer who comments on these issues and I bet I’ll find some borderline racist accusations related to dishonesty, racism, or otherwise cheating the system. Ready?

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**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\
**Post date:** [May 13, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bias-towards-white-antiracists/688285/80 "2014-05-13T20:36:11Z")

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What the heck are those links supposed to prove Marley?

eta: Poverty pimp means a specific thing, so I guess you are admitting that’s not what you meant. Some sort of racist jibe is all you meant. OK. Sure. Every black commentator probably has, somewhere on the internet been called racist things.

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