# Bible 101: Cain and Abel **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 19, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-101-cain-and-abel/326991 "2005-10-19T23:58:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![my\_ancestors\_were\_amoebae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@my\_ancestors\_were\_amoebae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/my_ancestors_were_amoebae)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-101-cain-and-abel/326991/21 "2005-10-20T19:44:42Z")
[The Brick Testament: Genesis](http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/index.html) This will help while providing a chuckle ---
**Author:** ![JustAnotherGeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/58f4c7/32.png) [@JustAnotherGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustAnotherGeek)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-101-cain-and-abel/326991/22 "2005-10-20T20:50:02Z")
> [@zev](#): > > The bible often relates occurences out of chronological order. Genesis 5 relates that Adam had other sons and daughters. In addition, since at the end of the episode Cain and his wife go and build a city, it should be obvious that this story takes place sometime after other children are born. This is further confirmed by the fact that there is no date on the story, only that it happened before Seth was born. (I’m doing it, I said that I wouldn’t but…) We are left with a certain… paradox, here. On one hand, no other humans have yet to be named before the mention of the birth of Seth, and Seth is “appointed” (statement and name-pun) to take the place of Abel. (Gen4:25) However, Cain clearly believes that there are others who will kill him (we don’t believe it is mom and dad, do we?). Also, there is no mention of Cain’s wife until after the death of Abel, and his subsequent “wanderings.” I stand by Callahan’s hypothesis regarding Abel: he never existed (as Cain’s brother). See, also the list of decendents of Seth and compare them to Cain’s. If we take Enos (or Enoch) to be “man” (like Adam), we have nearly identical lists (with one round of swapping). Bah, I gotta go to class. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-101-cain-and-abel/326991/23 "2005-10-20T20:56:44Z")
Actually, zev, I already knew something about that, though not the whole story. Thus, the 😛 > [@JustAnotherGeek](#): > > We are left with a certain… paradox, here. On one hand, no other humans have yet to be named before the mention of the birth of Seth, and Seth is “appointed” (statement and name-pun) to take the place of Abel. > . The usual explination I heard is that they way they spoke in those days was to not mention daughters. :rolleyes: Such an explination usually ignores the fact of the “thers who will kill him”, but that’s apologists for ya’ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![my\_ancestors\_were\_amoebae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@my\_ancestors\_were\_amoebae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/my_ancestors_were_amoebae)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-101-cain-and-abel/326991/24 "2005-10-20T21:04:16Z")
I’m reaching way back in the old memory banks here (2nd year undergrad). i seem to remember a story coming from maybe the kabahla (sp). in this story there was a wife for adam prior to eve. i want to say that this persons name was lilith. she wasn’t to the likeing of adam (a bit wild perhaps) and was cast out of the garden to make room for eve. so, presumably there was at least one woman roaming the land waiting for the lad to come about. i’m going to do some looking for the story i’m thinking of. 'til then maybe this will spark a memory ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-101-cain-and-abel/326991/25 "2005-10-20T21:04:28Z")
And then there’s the whole point that Cain wasn’t really a murderer. Since he’d never seen a person die, he certinally couldn’t have intended to kill Abel. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-101-cain-and-abel/326991/26 "2005-10-20T21:08:26Z")
> [@JustAnotherGeek](#): > > We are left with a certain… paradox, here. On one hand, no other humans have yet to be named before the mention of the birth of Seth, and Seth is “appointed” (statement and name-pun) to take the place of Abel. (Gen4:25) However, Cain clearly believes that there are others who will kill him (we don’t believe it is mom and dad, do we?). Also, there is no mention of Cain’s wife until after the death of Abel, and his subsequent “wanderings.” But that was the point of my statement, that Cain and Abel may not have been the only children of Adam and Eve at that point. Genesis 5:4 makes it clear that Adam had other children (sons and daughters), aside from those mentioned. The fact that they are not mentioned until Genesis 5 (whereas the Cain/Abel story is in Genesis 4) is of no consequence. It is common for the Author of Genesis to write stories out of strict chronological sequence. I’ll point out two examples: Genesis 11:34 mentioned the death of Terach, Abram/Abraham’s father. The very next verse, 12:1 relates God’s command to Abram to leave his family. The implication that you have from this is that Terach died and then Abram left. The reality (if you compute the years) is that Abram left the city of Haran well before Terach died. Rather, the text finishes up the story of the generations between Noah and Abram and then goes forward with the story of Abraham and his descendants. Likewise, Genesis 36 deals with the geneaology of Esau and the kings of Edom. Genesis 37 deals with the sale of Joseph by his brothers. This is not to say that all the people mentioned in 36 were born before the sale of Joseph and that the founding of the kingdom of Edom and the death of it’s first seven kings took place before the sale of Joseph - rather the Bible is simply finishing with the story of Esau before progressing with the story of Jacob and Joseph. Similarly, here too - there is no date on the Cain/Abel story. It could have occured anywhere in the first 130 years of Adam’s life (when Seth is born). In fact, it’s quite likely that it occured shortly before Eve gave birth to Seth (see that when he is named, he is named a “replacement” for Abel). It is certainly possible that in the 130 year interim, Adam and Eve had other children (sons and daughters) and that one of those daughters is Cain’s wife. Zev Steinhardt I stand by Callahan’s hypothesis regarding Abel: he never existed (as Cain’s brother). See, also the list of decendents of Seth and compare them to Cain’s. If we take Enos (or Enoch) to be “man” (like Adam), we have nearly identical lists (with one round of swapping). Bah, I gotta go to class. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-101-cain-and-abel/326991/27 "2005-10-20T21:09:32Z")
Whoops, I forgot to knock the end of **JustAnotherGeek** ’s response off of my reply. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![MysteryFellow63427](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@MysteryFellow63427](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysteryFellow63427)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-101-cain-and-abel/326991/28 "2005-10-20T21:28:08Z")
> [@my ancestors were amoebae](#): > > [The Brick Testament: Genesis](http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/index.html) > > This will help while providing a chuckle Oh my goodness, thanks for that link. That site is hilarious! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-101-cain-and-abel/326991/29 "2005-10-20T21:51:11Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Hmmm…is Cain still alive? If you believe Thornton Wilder, he is. ---
**Author:** ![JustAnotherGeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/58f4c7/32.png) [@JustAnotherGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustAnotherGeek)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-101-cain-and-abel/326991/30 "2005-10-21T01:18:52Z")
> [@zev](#): > > But that was the point of my statement, that Cain and Abel may not have been the only children of Adam and Eve at that point. Genesis 5:4 makes it clear that Adam had other children (sons and daughters), aside from those mentioned. > [@](#): > > The bible often relates occurences out of chronological order. You must feel that the verses are _really_ out of order. > [@The Good News Bible](#): > > 5:3 When Adam was 130 years old, he had a son who was like him, and he named him Seth. 4 After that, Adam lived another 800 years. He had other children 5 and died at the age of 930. Bah, I gotta go again (router issues, housemate working to fix it). But my point is that the natural order of thought here is that Seth was Adam’s third male child. Saying that there were more children than just Cain and Abel when the murder took place necessitates taking not just the stories out of order, but verses and portions of verses out of order (so much so that you then question the whole chronology clause by clause.) gotta run, brb ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-101-cain-and-abel/326991/31 "2005-10-21T02:38:45Z")
Well, there are two different creation stories in Genesis. One can hardly assume that God created the Universe twice. Also, the order of events (among a whole lot of other things) differ in the two versions, so apologists _have_ to presume a lot of “non-standard” chronology within chapters. The stance that “it didn’t exist before the first mention” is quite widespread. Ergo, many literalists believe that there was neither rain nor rainbows before the Deluge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-101-cain-and-abel/326991.md?page=1)