# Bible classes in US public schools. Unconstitutional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2017, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743 "2017-03-22T11:24:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/1 "2017-03-22T11:24:35Z")
[Here’s the story.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/03/22/this-west-virginia-school-district-has-weekly-bible-classes-a-kindergartner-is-suing/) > [@](#): > > A kindergartner is battling county officials in federal court over Bible classes in public school. > > In a federal lawsuit filed in January, Jane Doe, a pseudonymous plaintiff who is the mother of Mercer County, W.Va., kindergartner Jamie Doe, challenged the county’s “Bible in the Schools” program, saying it was unconstitutional. Firstly is the mother likely to win her case? And secondly why does this school even need to have Bible classes? Don’t they have Sunday Schools in the states run by churches? In England where I live it was common in the 50s for kids to attend Sunday School run by the Church of England even though it would have been quite legal to hold them in state schools as the UK is officially a Protestant Christian country. Is it normal in the US for public schools to have Bible classes? ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/2 "2017-03-22T12:05:58Z")
Standard IANAL disclaimer. I don’t see how this _ **isn’t** _ unconstitutional. Trying to get around it by saying, “we don’t take public money, so it’s OK,” just doesn’t cut it. It still has the appearance of state sponsorship. The only way I can see the Bible in a public school is as part of a World Religions class (and even there, it had better share equal time with the Q’uran, Jewish texts, Hindu sacred texts, etc.). Some schools will rent space out to churches and other religious groups (a church I once attended actually started meeting at the local elementary school), but school staff do not take part in the activities, and it’s usually pretty clear that the school is not in any way sponsoring or endorsing the particular religion. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/3 "2017-03-22T13:07:20Z")
I can’t help feeling they’re only cool with this because it’s Christianity. Were it any other religion, I suspect they’d suddenly have objections. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/4 "2017-03-22T13:16:10Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > [Here’s the story.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/03/22/this-west-virginia-school-district-has-weekly-bible-classes-a-kindergartner-is-suing/) > In England where I live it was common in the 50s for kids to attend Sunday School run by the Church of England even though it would have been quite legal to hold them in state schools as the UK is officially a Protestant Christian country. Is it normal in the US for public schools to have Bible classes? Clarification. It is perfectly legal to have Bible (or other) study classes in English state funded schools, _regardless_ of their prescribed faith, not _because_ our ‘official’ state religion is Church of England. 1/3 of our state schools are ‘faith’ schools, but that runs the full spectrum of faiths. Ironically really, when you consider the lack of faith within the country. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/5 "2017-03-22T13:36:24Z")
As a general rule, holding Bible study in public schools is unconstitutional. Studying the Bible must be part of a curriculum that is not Christian-centered, and presumably which does not approach the Bible from one specific viewpoint (say, for example, literal interpretation only). Despite the fact that the basic rules on religion in schools have been in place now for over 50 years, there are many corners of the US where the Christian religion is still firmly ensconced in the daily activities, including through the holding of Bible study as part of the official curriculum. The Midwest and the South often have rural (mostly) schools that still do this. When someone complains, the ACLU comes along and patiently explains to the district that they cannot do that. Usually, the threat of a lawsuit is enough to force the district to change how they approach the matter (usually by making the Bible study an extra-curricular activity). Occasionally, the courts have to get involved. Recently, there’s been some pushback from conservative Christians, who view schools without religion as a bad idea. Of course, if their kids were being required, or coerced, or given strong motivations to study the Koran, they would scream their heads off. But somehow, doing the same thing with the Bible is ok. Your milage may vary. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/6 "2017-03-22T14:02:21Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > … When someone complains, the ACLU comes along and patiently explains to the district that they cannot do that. Usually, the threat of a lawsuit is enough to force the district to change how they approach the matter (usually by making the Bible study an extra-curricular activity). Occasionally, the courts have to get involved. … And to emphasize this part of the point DSYoungEsq is making, student led religious activities are generally constitutional. Schools cannot refuse to recognize a student created and led Bible study club because of its religious nature. So school districts have to walk a bit of a fine line. Public schools cannot promote one religion over another (or over non-religion) as a part of the curriculum but cannot prevent free exercise on equal grounds with other student led extra curricular activities. ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/7 "2017-03-22T14:09:34Z")
If public schools are going to teach religion, they should teach **all** religions. I’ve had world Civ classes in high school where we did talk about the history of many different religions, and I think that is a great way for kids to get perspective. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/8 "2017-03-22T14:25:19Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Clarification. It is perfectly legal to have Bible (or other) study classes in English state funded schools, _regardless_ of their prescribed faith, not _because_ our ‘official’ state religion is Church of England. > > 1/3 of our state schools are ‘faith’ schools, but that runs the full spectrum of faiths. Ironically really, when you consider the lack of faith within the country. Clarification gratefully accepted. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/9 "2017-03-22T14:31:53Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > If public schools are going to teach religion, they should teach **all** religions. I’ve had world Civ classes in high school where we did talk about the history of many different religions, and I think that is a great way for kids to get perspective. I’ve had something similar in Religion… 6th grade was “Comparative Religion”. In a nuns’ school. The year that particular subject happened to be most interesting, despite the teacher being a twat, mainly because it didn’t duplicate stuff we already got at church; the previous year my parents had let me drop Sunday school after I proved we were getting the same material in both places. One of the nicest things about my favorite Religion teachers (father Marcos and father Mendiburu) is that both of them were perfectly happy to roam into “what do other religions say on this subject”. I think it can be very interesting, specially since religion has prompted so much of the world’s art and been so entwined with other bits of history. When I had it, the best part was “it’s new stuff”; in time, the best part is that although the knowledge of other religions I got was quite superficial, it is a lot more than many other people have. I think it’s helped me understood some stuff much better. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/10 "2017-03-22T14:57:48Z")
Unconstitutional if official classes held during regular school hours. The school can allow groups to do this after hours as extra-curricular activity as long as all religions are welcome to do the same. The solution, for those inclined, is to hold study groups after school hours. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/11 "2017-03-22T15:02:42Z")
Bible? That’s too general. What is being taught and why? Teaching the bible as a document of history alongside a text like “The Bible Unearthed”(Finkelstein) provides an academic basis of understanding that would be useful to any attendees. Knowledge of the various sources and translations is worthwhile. Anything beyond that gets into political mysticism. Why? Is there a deficiency of churches in W. Virginia? Should the state fill in the gap? In any case the state has to investigate and approve/disapprove the material being taught. I’m not sure that can pass Constitutional muster. Crane ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/12 "2017-03-22T15:03:01Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > If public schools are going to teach religion, they should teach **all** religions. I’ve had world Civ classes in high school where we did talk about the history of many different religions, and I think that is a great way for kids to get perspective. I don’t think we can trust the schools to be even-handed about this. I can just imagine a teacher putting up a powerpoint slide of a plane hitting the WTC and saying “this is everything you need to know about Islam”. I don’t understand the right wing’s fixation on this, like all of our problems will be solved if we only allowed prayer in school. The logical question is “whose prayers?”, to which there is no acceptable answer. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/13 "2017-03-22T15:17:06Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Bible? That’s too general. What is being taught and why? > > Teaching the bible as a document of history alongside a text like > “The Bible Unearthed”(Finkelstein) provides an academic basis of > understanding that would be useful to any attendees. Knowledge > of the various sources and translations is worthwhile. Anything > beyond that gets into political mysticism. [QUOTE=From the Article] One lesson, described in the suit, asked students to “imagine that human beings and dinosaurs existed at the same time.” “So picture Adam being able to crawl up on the back of a dinosaur!” the lesson said, as the suit explained. “He and Eve could have their own personal water slide! Wouldn’t that be so wild!” [/QUOTE] Clearly a critical study ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/14 "2017-03-22T15:18:02Z")
When I was in High School we had “Bible as Literature” class (an elective). This was in SoCal in the late 80’s. I was all :dubious: at it but apparently it was allowed since technically it was a lit class. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/15 "2017-03-22T15:25:19Z")
[The Texas Freedom Network](http://tfn.org/failure-to-implement-2007-legislation-undermines-study-of-bible-in-texas-public-schools/) keeps an eye on stuff like this. Some years ago, they had experts examine curricula for Bible Study in public schools. Some programs were ecumenical in approach, teaching the Bible as relevant to history & literature. Others were solidly sectarian, using the KJV as The Basis of All Truth. Guidelines were suggestd to teach the subject–_as an elective in secondary schools_. Here’s an update: > [@](#): > > Mark Chancey, a professor of religious studies at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, authored this new report as well as an initial study of public school Bible courses in 2006 — Reading, Writing & Religion: Teaching the Bible in Texas Public Schools. A 2005 report on a prominent Bible course curriculum is available here. > > While some districts succeeded in offering legally appropriate and academically sound Bible courses, most such courses in Texas public schools continue to suffer from the same serious flaws that were common six years ago, Prof. Chancey said. > > “As a biblical scholar and especially as a parent, I want our state’s public schools to take the study of the Bible’s influence as seriously as they do the study of science or history,” Prof. Chancey said. “But the evidence shows that Texas isn’t giving the study of the Bible the respect it deserves. Academically, many of these classes lack rigor and substance, and some seem less interested in cultivating religious literacy than in promoting religious beliefs. Their approach puts their school districts in legal jeopardy and their taxpayers in financial jeopardy.” So, there can be pitfalls. But we’ve got folks like the TFN to keep their eyes on the situation. This being Texas, there are lots of situations. Social studies standards? (Why did the South secede?) Creationism trying to make a comeback? However, this West Virginia situation _doesn’t_ involve electives for older students. It’s indoctrination beginning in first grade–including Creationism. And the Religions Right is pushing it. Best wishes to the folks of West Virginia. (Showing that Texas is\* not\* always the worst!) ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/16 "2017-03-22T15:32:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t think we can trust the schools to be even-handed about this. I can just imagine a teacher putting up a powerpoint slide of a plane hitting the WTC and saying “this is everything you need to know about Islam”. Do you understand that this is like showing a picture of an IRA attack and saying “This is everything you need to know about Christianity” A history/social studies class is about the larger picture, not just the tragedies. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/17 "2017-03-22T15:36:12Z")
It all comes down to the judge’s determination of this sentence from the article: “The point of the course is to teach history and literature … a cultural enrichment objective.” If the judge finds that to be true, then the classes are not unconstitutional. It’s perfectly fine to teach ABOUT a religion, and about history and literature. It’s unconstitutional to teach any religion as something we believe, or something the student should believe. Funding is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/18 "2017-03-22T15:36:16Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > Do you understand that this is like showing a picture of an IRA attack and saying “This is everything you need to know about Christianity” > A history/social studies class is about the larger picture, not just the tragedies. I understand that there are a lot of teachers who will not be able to resist a shot like this. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/19 "2017-03-22T15:44:51Z")
To me, the fundamental difference is, are you teaching _about_ a religion, or are you teaching the religion itself? A Comparative Religion class obviously compares and contrasts the differing or shared beliefs of a variety of religions, but is not indoctrinating students into a particular belief system. Teaching the actual doctrine of the Bible as they are doing in this instance is unconstitutional. (IANAL.) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/20 "2017-03-22T15:51:06Z")
Yeah, I had heard about this case back in January when it was first filed and my suspicion at the time was it (the bible classes) won’t prevail, and had only lasted as long as it has (they’ve been doing it since 1939) simply because Mercer County WV only has a few thousand students in the whole county, it’s just a rural place far off the radar of the organizations that usually litigate these sorts of things. Incidentally before 1986 the entire program was administered by private citizens who were given the ability to teach this class during the regular school day, parent complaints in the 1980s lead to the current form where it’s “overseen” by the school. The school district has done a few things to try and make it Kosher: 1. The classes are technically offered during a discretionary period during which students can opt to take another elective or study hall. 2. The classes are funded by non-profit organization. 3. The classes are not taught by regular teachers, but outsiders who don’t work for the school system. But why I suspect none of this will make the program kosher: 1. Many have said that it’s not generally known or widely known that you can actually opt out. Most parents/students are under the assumption it’s a required course, suggesting the idea that it’s optional and during a discretionary period is something that may be true on paper but isn’t de facto true in reality. This makes the class firmly part of the regular school day. 2. There have been reports of other students, some of the few to know they could opt out and who did opt out, facing lots of bullying/social ostracism due to it. 3. While it isn’t taught by school board employee teachers, the program is still administered by the schools, which probably makes it materially different than true “non-school” religious activities like FCA meetings, student lead prayer meetings and etc. 4. Since the school system is administering this program which clearly endorses a specific religion, that by itself is a pretty obvious establishment clause violation. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743.md?page=2)