# Bible classes in US public schools. Unconstitutional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2017, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743 "2017-03-22T11:24:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/61 "2017-03-25T21:54:56Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Your point is true, and substantially what’s already been said in this thread. But it’s about after school programs, not “electives”. And as I noted in the first of those you quoted: > [@Iggy](#): > > …If the current West Virginia has any of those issues as a part of its religious instruction program then the courts will likely rule that it is unconstitutional. Seems to me the WV program is on shaky ground. But it is not so simple as to say religious programs in schools are categorically unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/62 "2017-03-26T00:46:15Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Your point is true, and substantially what’s already been said in this thread. But it’s about after school programs, not “electives”. And the situation described in the OP is not exactly an “elective.” It’s a regular class–beginning in _The First Grade_. Students may opt out but those who choose to do so have been bullied. “Electives” generally begin later in one’s academic career. Like choosing between French & Spanish in Middle School… The Texas Freedom Network report on [Bible Study classes](http://tfn.org/failure-to-implement-2007-legislation-undermines-study-of-bible-in-texas-public-schools/) in Texas– > [@](#): > > While the number of Texas school districts teaching courses is increasing, widespread failure to implement key guidelines passed by the Legislature has undermined efforts to resolve serious problems documented in such courses six years ago, according to a new report from a Southern Methodist University professor of religious studies and the Texas Freedom Network Education Fund. The problems range from factual errors to blatant religious bias and even discredited claims about the Bible and race. So they’re problematic. (Some seem to be OK.) But, even then, they are not offered to First Graders who can “opt out” & probably sit in an empty classroom while their friends learn about Jesus & his dinosaur… ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/63 "2017-03-26T06:05:53Z")
Exactly why I put it in quotes. Nothing is elective in first grade. Kids want to please their teachers and fit in. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/64 "2017-03-26T13:19:13Z")
The first question is why? If 98% of parents want the program then I assume that the families are already religious. In that case ample religious instruction exists within the community. So, what is their purpose? Perhaps to impose their view on the 2%. The second question is what? What can be taught in a ‘Bible’ course that does not conflict with some religious belief? If a child protests that ‘my daddy says there weren’t dinosaurs with people’, how does the teacher respond? It’s part of a state curriculum. The woman should win her case in court. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/65 "2017-03-26T16:03:25Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > . . . So, what is their purpose? Perhaps to impose their view on the 2%. . . . Probably it’s more to impose their view on everyone else already in their 98%. Yes, you’re a Christian, but are you one of those Catholic johnnies? Yes, you’re a Protestant, but are you too tolerant of Jews? etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/66 "2017-03-26T16:19:21Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Exactly why I put it in quotes. Nothing is elective in first grade. Kids want to please their teachers and fit in. > > Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Per the court, bullying between students isn’t the issue. Their logic is that parents feel the coercion, not the kids, and since the parents have control over whether to grant permission or not then this is a non-starter. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/67 "2017-03-26T16:29:22Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > When I was in High School we had “Bible as Literature” class (an elective). This was in SoCal in the late 80’s. I was all :dubious: at it but apparently it was allowed since technically it was a lit class. SoCal, late '70s. We had ‘The Bible as Literature’ too. (I didn’t take it.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/68 "2017-03-26T17:56:16Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > SoCal, late '70s. We had ‘The Bible as Literature’ too. (I didn’t take it.) A question for those that took this(or any similar course)-Was this course strictly a non-denominational course that didn’t try to push Christianity, or(in your opinion) was the title of the course a workaround to basically push religion? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/69 "2017-03-26T18:16:59Z")
Didn’t attend the class. Did read “The Bible Unearthed” when it was recommended on this forum. Excellent text for a class. Compares biblical accounts with contemporary accounts and attempts to resolve the conflicting political views. Definitely non-denominational. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/70 "2017-03-26T18:36:18Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Didn’t attend the class. Did read “The Bible Unearthed” when it was recommended on this forum. Excellent text for a class. Compares biblical accounts with contemporary accounts and attempts to resolve the conflicting political views. Definitely non-denominational. Since that book dealt with the Hebrew Bible and its relationship with ancient Israel, is/was it used in the classes being discussed in this thread, classes that seem to be pushed by Christian organizations? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/71 "2017-03-26T20:13:34Z")
C#70, The Bible, contemporary texts and modern archaeology. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/72 "2017-03-26T20:22:15Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I can’t help feeling they’re only cool with this because it’s Christianity. Were it any other religion, I suspect they’d suddenly have objections. > **[Lawsuit: Public school forced my child to convert to Islam](https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/lawsuit-public-school-forced-my-child-to-convert-to-islam)** > > Have our public schools become indoctrination centers – promoting Islam and marginalizing every other religion? "The lawsuit, filed in federal court, alleges that **students spent only one day studying Christianity and two weeks studying Islam**. “During its brief instruction on Christianity, Defendants failed to cover any portion of the Bible or other non-Islamic religious texts, such as the Ten Commandments,” the lawsuit states. “Instead, the class included disparaging remarks about Christianity and the Pope.” Students were also allegedly instructed that “the Islamic religion is a fact while Christianity and Judaism are just beliefs.” “Such discriminatory treatment of Christianity is an unconstitutional promotion of one religion over another,” Thompson said." … “The following day the vice principal told Wood that his daughter was required to take the class and would receive “zeros” on any incomplete assignments even if the assignments violated the family’s religious beliefs and heritage.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/73 "2017-03-26T20:25:09Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > C#70, > > The Bible, contemporary texts and modern archaeology. > > Crane 1. My name is **Czarcasm** , if you don’t mind. 2. Is this a book used in the courses being described/criticized in this thread, or just another book about the Biblical history that you have heard of? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/74 "2017-03-26T20:31:38Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > [Lawsuit: Public school forced my child to convert to Islam | Fox News](http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/01/29/lawsuit-public-school-forced-my-child-to-convert-to-islam.html) > > "The lawsuit, filed in federal court, alleges that **students spent only one day studying Christianity and two weeks studying Islam**. > > “During its brief instruction on Christianity, Defendants failed to cover any portion of the Bible or other non-Islamic religious texts, such as the Ten Commandments,” the lawsuit states. “Instead, the class included disparaging remarks about Christianity and the Pope.” > > Students were also allegedly instructed that “the Islamic religion is a fact while Christianity and Judaism are just beliefs.” > > “Such discriminatory treatment of Christianity is an unconstitutional promotion of one religion over another,” Thompson said." > > … > > “The following day the vice principal told Wood that his daughter was required to take the class and would receive “zeros” on any incomplete assignments even if the assignments violated the family’s religious beliefs and heritage.” [The NotFox version.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Plata_High_School#Islamic_indoctrination_lawsuit) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/75 "2017-03-27T01:53:47Z")
All I know is that student-led Bible clubs that take place during the normal club organization times are perfectly legal. I know that a teacher had to be in the room, but she could not participate. She was just “adult supervision.” The relevant decision seems to be described in [this 1990 article](http://www.nytimes.com/1990/06/05/us/high-court-rules-religious-clubs-can-meet-in-public-high-schools.html) from the NYTimes. Knowing about this, I also bristled at everyone assuming any Bible study class must be unconstitutional. This one may be, but I note they seem to be doing the right things to make it constitutional. Though I am unsure about bringing in people from outside–do they allow that for every other club? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/76 "2017-03-27T03:55:19Z")
OK-Czarcasm#73, The book was recommended by several posters in this forum. The point of view is that of an archaeologist. Fascinating treatment of the subject. I read it straight through and keep it handy as a reference. I do not know of any Bible Courses, so I’m unaware of the texts used. The book is an example of a non-denominational treatment of the topic. Crane ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/77 "2017-03-27T04:38:55Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > OK-Czarcasm#73, > > The book was recommended by several posters in this forum. The point of view is that of an archaeologist. Fascinating treatment of the subject. I read it straight through and keep it handy as a reference. I do not know of any Bible Courses, so I’m unaware of the texts used. > > The book is an example of a non-denominational treatment of the topic. > > Crane I am well aware that there are non-denominational treatments on the topic…but that is neither here nor there unless they are the books being used in the classes being discussed in this thread, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/78 "2017-03-27T04:53:32Z")
Just a reminder that what is being discussed here isn’t some after school club or program. It is part of the “Bible In The Schools” program that takes place during school hours using state accredited teachers, they are for-credit classes, and their official textbook is the Bible. I got this information [from the official website.](http://bibleintheschools.org/1) > [@](#): > > -Observable Change - Teachers report observable changes in student attitude, behavior, and outlook as a result of taking a Bible history course. > > -Courses Offered - Courses are academically rigorous, for-credit, and are voluntary electives. Courses offered: > > ``` > Genesis - 6th Grade > Exodus - 7th Grade > Life of Jesus - 8th Grade (Based on book of Luke) > Old Testament Survey - 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th Grade > New Testament Survey - 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th Grade > > ``` > > -Bible as Textbook - The textbook used is the Bible. That’s seven courses in seven years, using the Bible as a textbook. Do they put that much emphasis on any other field of study? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/79 "2017-03-27T13:23:23Z")
If parents want their kids to learn about the Bible, a lot of churches have Bible study programs or they could teach them themselves. There is no reason this has to be done in a public school and in fact there are good reasons not to. I don’t care if 99.99% of the parents want it, I don’t care if 100% of the parents want it. Keep religion out of government and keep government out of religion. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743/80 "2017-03-27T14:19:52Z")
BobLibDem, Agreed - the courses listed in #78 are not about the Bible as a history text. They are courses in religion. Crane [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-classes-in-us-public-schools-unconstitutional/782743.md?page=5)