Which makes one wonder about the value of discussing the teachings of Jesus in school if this is the outcome.
For anybody who knows history, the degree to which we have fallen away from the Founding Fathers’ view of religion is truly astounding.
The First Amendment has absolutely nothing to do with teaching or endorsing a “religion” in the modern sense–Christianity, Islam, etc. What the Founders had in mind was endorsing a particular Christian denomination. They didn’t want to end up like most of Europe, where Anglicanism was the official denomination of England, Lutheranism was the official denomination of Germany, etc.
Having a Bible study class in public school is every bit as constitutional as having church services in the US Capitol building.
http://constitution.com/u-s-capitol-once-the-largest-church-in-washington-d-c/
John Adams, as President, issued an official proclamation declaring a national day of prayer.
I am curious –
If a school allows a student-created and led Bible class, must it also allow a student-created and led Koran class? How about a student-created and led Wiccan class?
Suppose a school already allows the Baptist Bible class. If a Satanism class is proposed, can the school disallow the Baptist class solely to enable disallowing the Satanism class?
My own suspicion is that once the first is allowed, the school cannot disallow other religious classes, but I don’t know. And I don’t know if the school can avoid the whole issue by not allowing any religious classes.
Well, if we want to go back to the Founding, the Establishment clause was not incorporated and several of the states actually had Established Churches. That pretty much ended by the 1820s, though, even though the 1st amendment wasn’t officially incorporated until much later.
For example, I like to reference the Massachusetts State Constitution:
We’ve come a long way, baby!
And we all know that the Founding Fathers always agreed on every issue!
They didn’t have to look to Europe to see the problems. Anglicanism was the Established Church in most of the Southern Colonies; taxes went to support The Church, even if you were non-Conformist. And those Scots-Irish folk in the western part of the state* did* complain. New England had progressed from the days when Quakers were hanged & Catholics risked witchcraft charges. (She couldn’t recite the Lord’s Prayer in English–only in Irish or Latin!) The Congregationalist churches were disestablished early in the 19th century. Pennsylvania, due to Quaker influence, actually allowed considerable religious freedom. As did New York, because people were usually busy making money.
From Washington’s letter to the Trouro Synagogue:
There are circumstances wherein Bible study could be part of the curriculum. With certain courses, offered as electives in the later years–see my previous post. The situation in West Virginia is a travesty & needs to end.
(European History Note: Germany was not united in those days. And it was not–and still is not–totally Protestant.)
I’m pretty sure they have Christian clubs in highschool, that club can have a faculty advisor. How is this much worse?
This may be splitting hairs, but teaching *about *the Bible sounds perfectly legal, unless we want all World Religions courses to be illegal (teaching *about *the Korean, about Islam, about Buddhism, Taoism, etc.)
Teaching the Bible to *promote * the Bible as *proselytization *is what would be illegal under the Constitution.
Speaking as a public high school Social Studies teacher…
I can talk about religion, and I do. I can allude to the Bible, and I have. That’s all fine.
IF I were an English teacher, could I teach kids the story of David & Goliath? The story of Noah’s Ark? The story of the creation from Genesis? Sure I could! After all, any educated person should know the most famous Bible stories. I could also teach about the Greek gods and goddesseswho participated in the Trojan War.
What I could NOT do is teach that any one religion is true, or that any religious myth absolutely, positively, really happened.
And if I were a Science teacher, I could NOT teach the Genesis account of creation at all.
And all of us can be really thankful for that. The percentage of people in the US who believe in creationism is already frightening enough.
Teaching ABOUT religion in public schools is not only OK, it’s necessary to have an understanding of many historical events. Teaching that a religion is right or wrong, or endorsing various doctrines, is not acceptable. Having religious extracurriculars, like Fellowship of Christian Athletes, Jewish or Muslim clubs, that kind of thing, is also legal.
I don’t have a problem with mentioning the Genesis account as many people believe it (that the earth was created in a literal week, approximately 6,000 years ago), also in the context of assorted cultures’ creation myths.
One of those Christians is the Attorney General of the United States, who views anything secular as evil.
This being elementary school, I cannot see this as anything other than indoctrination.
If it was any religious text other than the bible, there would not be objections, there would be conniption fits.
There have been challenges of just the sort you mention. If a school supports student created clubs then the school administration cannot constitutionally pick and choose which clubs to allow based upon the particular religious affiliation (or lack thereof). They can use content neutral policies that apply equally to all.
So no problem refusing midnight meeting of the Wiccan Club on the grounds that the school facilities are only available for student led extra-curricular activities until 6pm. But if they want to meet during the same hours as other clubs, the school administration cannot use the content of the club as the deciding factor to refuse them.
Yes, at least one after school satan club is up and running in Portland, Oregon. Reportedly it is the first of its kind in the nation. And its first meeting in 2016 drew protesters who drove from far and wide to express their opposition. The Satan Club was organized to provide a counter view the The Good News Club, a Christian religious club. The leader of The Good News Club was quoted as saying about the Satan Club, “They have that right even though we don’t agree with what they’re doing.”
Now that’s the kind of Christian I have no problem with at all. I wish there were more like him.
I don’t see any reason, and certainly no requirement, why a Christianity class should be part of a general religion class or be taught alongside other religious classes. If a school had a course on American History, would people object that they weren’t also teaching Canadian History and British History? If a school has courses in French and Spanish, are people going to object they’re not teaching every language? Christianity is the predominant religion in the United States; there’s secular reasons why a school might have a class on Christianity without having equivalent classes on other religions.
That said, it’s important to maintain the distinction between teaching about a religion and teaching the religion.
I read parts of the Bible in my high school English classes. The reason being that you can’t really understand lots of classical western literature without having a basic understanding of some parts of the Bible
If I recall correctly, the teacher sent a letter home with all the students explaining this reasoning. It was fine. We weren’t being taught religion, we were being taught about religion. And it didn’t share time with any other religious texts, because, for the most part, the impact of other religious texts on classic English literature is significantly less than that of the Bible.
But we were high school students. Kindergarteners don’t need a contextual understanding of the Bible to fully grok their literature assignments.
Thread from last month about this case: West Virginia public schools sued over Bible classes
There have always been state-funded church schools in the UK as well, and until relatively recently it was the law in England and Wales that all schools had to have a daily assembly for collective worship “of broadly Christian character” (in practice, increasingly unobserved or so broadly interpreted as to be not particularly religious at all). Religious education is part of the national curriculum syllabus, but not as part of promoting any particular religious belief or practice over another or none. Bible study on its own without any context or comparative study, even in a church school, would quite likely get a bad rating from the inspectors (as has also happened to supplementary private Islamic schools).
Any class that teaches the Christian Bible (or the Koran or the Book of Mormon or any other religious text) as inerrant truth, the word of God, etc. would be unconstitutional. Indoctrinating children into religious belief is well beyond the remit of public education in the U.S. Of course, as others in this thread have pointed out, it is perfectly acceptable to teach about the Bible (or the Koran or the Book of Mormon) in a course devoted to literature, religious studies, history, etc. But there is an obvious, fundamental difference between studying a text from an academic perspective and from a spiritual/religious one. “This book is the word of God, and you must follow its precepts” is a far cry from “This book forms the basis of belief for the followers of this particular religion.”
Even the McCarthy-era insertion of “under God” into the pledge of allegiance seems unconstitutional to me (though I know it has been upheld by various courts). And even though I find the pledge a disturbing quasi-fascist exercise even without the mention of God, no child can be compelled to say it. Participation in religious study when a child has no chance to opt out would be especially egregious, but any form of school-led religious study should not occur as part of the official curriculum.
To keep things clear–this isn’t a student ran class or club, it’s “overseen” by the board of education but administered by and funded by an outside group who send in basically itinerant religious teachers. It isn’t a religion class in the collegiate sense, it’s basically Sunday school inside of public schools, and is quite clearly done to promote and indoctrinate a specific religion–a specific flavor of non-denominational Christianity that leans towards evangelical Protestantism.
There is a large segment of the American population who believe that religious instruction in schools is a good thing. We are always going to find districts where parents try to push the limit, especially in those areas where almost everyone is “Christian”, and where the spotlight isn’t shining too brightly. But the courts have made it clear that religious instruction is not allowed, so it’s generally just a matter of getting a court case going.