# Bible prophecy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460 "2016-03-09T19:30:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/101 "2016-03-09T22:30:43Z")
> [@Lionheartlamb](#): > > The Messiah had to be rejected, and put to death for all mans sins. That is **not** what the Messiah is for or will do. Ask any rabbi, they know Messiah-stuff better than you do. ---
**Author:** ![Lionheartlamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Lionheartlamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lionheartlamb)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/102 "2016-03-09T22:33:19Z")
> [@Melaradark](#): > > Unfortunately, merely being well known and famous doesn’t make something TRUE. > > As well as the prophecies of Nostrodamus, Muhammed, the Sanskrit Puranas of the Hindu religion, the prophecies concerning Buddha, the Zoroastrian prophecies, etc. > Merely being well-known, famous, or studied/taught by scholars does not make something TRUE. Nostradamus lived about 400 years ago. The prophets lived about 2500 years ago. Jesus fulfilled 350 specific prophecies about his life, death and Resurrection. You need to look at them seriously before just dismissing them. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/103 "2016-03-09T22:33:21Z")
> [@Lionheartlamb](#): > > The problem with this argument is the prophecies were NOT written after His death, they were written centuries before he was ever born. Even predicting the tiny little town He would be born in. And where is your proof that “He” was ever born at all, let alone in that town? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/104 "2016-03-09T22:34:27Z")
> [@Lionheartlamb](#): > > Atheist (not that u are one) love to tote this nonsense out, but the fact is the OT was collated, translated and on record well before Christ was ever born. > > We have multiple sources that SECULAR science proves pre dated Christ by centuries. Including the DEAD SEA SCROLLS. Which contained almost every book of the OT. > > So secular science has PROVEN these prophecies predate Jesus by centuries. No one disputes any of that, but none of it constitutes “secular proof that the Bible is 100% accurate and true.” ---
**Author:** ![Lionheartlamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Lionheartlamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lionheartlamb)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/105 "2016-03-09T22:35:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That is **not** what the Messiah is for or will do. Ask any rabbi, they know Messiah-stuff better than you do. I don’t have to ask a Rabbi, I’m reading their books myself. I’m literally posting the scriptures for you. Here is what the NT says about the Jews who reject Christ: **Romans 11:25** For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; **that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.** ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/106 "2016-03-09T22:38:16Z")
> [@Lionheartlamb](#): > > Here is what the NT says about the Jews who reject Christ: You have done literally nothing to establish why any of us should _care_ what the NT says about anyone who did anything. ---
**Author:** ![Melaradark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Melaradark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melaradark)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/107 "2016-03-09T22:39:20Z")
> [@](#): > > “The problem with this argument is the prophecies were NOT written after his death-“ I never said they were. I said the events of Jesus’ life were manipulated to match the prophecies after He died. The gospels and the New Testament were not written until decades after Jesus died. Quite a lot of OTHER prophecies having nothing to do with Jesus, such as several of Daniel’s- were provably written after the events they are claimed to prophecy. Or are so vague that literally anything can be made to fit them. You’re not understanding what I’m saying about the prophecies regarding Jesus. I’m saying the events of Jesus life were changed to fulfill the prophecies that were already made, not that the prophecies themselves were changed. For example, say a hundred years ago someone prophesied that a child would be born with ‘fair hair’ and would come to rule the world but only after he had disappeared for a time then returned. Let’s call this the Fair Hair Prophecy. Then a somewhat famous figure comes on the stage, does a few things that impress people, then dies. Let’s call him Jack. Ten years later, I…with my own agenda…write a book claiming that Jack is actually the fulfillment of the Fair Hair prophecy. Only problem is, Jack had dark hair. Well, easy. I write that Jack was actually born with blonde hair but it turned dark later on. Bam, suddenly he fulfills the prophecy. Just like the prophets of the OT mentioned a Messiah coming from Bethlehem. Jesus was from Nazareth, but after He died someone wanted to make him fit the prophecies of the Messiah. Only problem is, to do that He has to be born in Bethlehem. Well, easy! Write about a made-up census that forced his parents to travel to Bethlehem and have him be born there, despite being from another region. Bam! Suddenly he fulfills the prophecy. > [@](#): > > “But we have copies of every book of the OT that predate Christ by centuries.” This doesn’t prove your claim. That’s like saying we have copies of the Fair Hair prophecy that date back a hundred years before Jack is born, thus clearly Jack really fulfilled the prophecy. You don’t need to prove the age of the prophecies of the Messiah, you need to prove that Jesus ACTUALLY fulfilled them, and that stories about Him were not just manipulated to MAKE Him fulfill them. Is that clearer? > [@](#): > > “The words have not been changed after the fact to fit the story.” No, the story that was written after the fact was changed to fit the prophecies. That’s what I’m saying. > [@](#): > > “Don’t take my word for it-“ I know the OT and the Torah and the Dead Sea Scrolls are older than Christ. That is not the argument here. The argument here is that stories of Christ’s life were changed to fit those sources after He died. ---
**Author:** ![Lionheartlamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Lionheartlamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lionheartlamb)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/108 "2016-03-09T22:42:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And where is your proof that “He” was ever born at all, let alone in that town? Google it. Secular historians agree the man was real and lived in Nazareth. And He was executed by the Romans. There is no reason to believe otherwise. There are far too many written accounts from that era. ---
**Author:** ![Melaradark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Melaradark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melaradark)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/109 "2016-03-09T22:43:14Z")
> [@](#): > > “Nostradamus lived about 400 years ago.” Yes, and? > [@](#): > > “The prophets lived about 2500 years ago.” And? > [@](#): > > “Jesus fulfilled 350 specific prophecies about his life, death and Resurrection.” No, He didn’t. People SAID He did, and wrote down that He did, after He died. > [@](#): > > “You need to look at them seriously before just dismissing them.” Why are you assuming I haven’t looked at them seriously? Because I haven’t reached the same conclusion as you have? > [@](#): > > “I’m literally posting the scriptures for you.” Yes, but you posting them literally does not make them true. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/110 "2016-03-09T22:44:18Z")
> [@Lionheartlamb](#): > > Secular history records that Nebuchadnezzar did in fact kill King Necho II of Egypt > . If killing a sovereign = conquering that soverieign’s nation, the South won the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/111 "2016-03-09T22:47:09Z")
> [@Lionheartlamb](#): > > Google it. > > Secular historians agree the man was real and lived in Nazareth. And He was executed by the Romans. > > There is no reason to believe otherwise. There are far too many written accounts from that era. Many written accounts about Jesus from that era? Such as? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/112 "2016-03-09T22:47:42Z")
> [@Lionheartlamb](#): > > Google it. Not how we do things. If you make the assertion, you have to support it yourself, whether by your own reasoning or a cite. This is because, among other reasons, of the fairly obvious fact that if one of us does a Google search and comes up with a citation which is quickly refuted, you could then repudiate that source. Ordinarily I would point out that Athena doesn’t consider any of the Christian Bible valid anyway, but I’m too tired for my usual silliness. ---
**Author:** ![Melaradark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Melaradark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melaradark)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/113 "2016-03-09T22:48:56Z")
> [@](#): > > “Google it.” Because nothing that can be Googled is ever anything but true? > [@](#): > > “Secular historians agree the man was real and lived in Nazareth. And He was executed by the Romans.” That’s as may be, however, that doesn’t mean they are right- though they are likely to be. More importantly, it doesn’t mean everything in the bible about Jesus is true, any more than people agreeing that London exists and is a real place means Harry Potter is true. > [@](#): > > “There is no reason to believe otherwise.” There are tons of reasons to believe otherwise. > [@](#): > > “There are far too many written accounts from that era.” Ok, then you should be able to help me out here. Please, cite one contemporary written witness account –written while Jesus was alive- that is NOT in the bible- that describes the life or existence of Jesus or the major events that surround His life/death. That is, a third party account from someone who met Jesus that is NOT and never was in the bible; or a third party account recording the major events that occurred at the time, such as the three days of darkness, the dead rising from their graves and talking with people in the streets, the Exodus, the massive Roman Migration taxing and census, Herod slaughtering the first born boys, etc. If your claim is true, this should be easy. ---
**Author:** ![Lionheartlamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Lionheartlamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lionheartlamb)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/114 "2016-03-09T22:49:04Z")
> [@Melaradark](#): > > I never said they were. I said the events of Jesus’ life were manipulated to match the prophecies after He died. The gospels and the New Testament were not written until decades after Jesus died. > > Quite a lot of OTHER prophecies having nothing to do with Jesus, such as several of Daniel’s- were provably written after the events they are claimed to prophecy. Or are so vague that literally anything can be made to fit them. > > You’re not understanding what I’m saying about the prophecies regarding Jesus. I’m saying the events of Jesus life were changed to fulfill the prophecies that were already made, not that the prophecies themselves were changed. > > For example, say a hundred years ago someone prophesied that a child would be born with ‘fair hair’ and would come to rule the world but only after he had disappeared for a time then returned. Let’s call this the Fair Hair Prophecy. > > Then a somewhat famous figure comes on the stage, does a few things that impress people, then dies. Let’s call him Jack. Ten years later, I…with my own agenda…write a book claiming that Jack is actually the fulfillment of the Fair Hair prophecy. Only problem is, Jack had dark hair. Well, easy. I write that Jack was actually born with blonde hair but it turned dark later on. Bam, suddenly he fulfills the prophecy. > Just like the prophets of the OT mentioned a Messiah coming from Bethlehem. Jesus was from Nazareth, but after He died someone wanted to make him fit the prophecies of the Messiah. Only problem is, to do that He has to be born in Bethlehem. Well, easy! Write about a made-up census that forced his parents to travel to Bethlehem and have him be born there, despite being from another region. Bam! Suddenly he fulfills the prophecy. > > This doesn’t prove your claim. That’s like saying we have copies of the Fair Hair prophecy that date back a hundred years before Jack is born, thus clearly Jack really fulfilled the prophecy. You don’t need to prove the age of the prophecies of the Messiah, you need to prove that Jesus ACTUALLY fulfilled them, and that stories about Him were not just manipulated to MAKE Him fulfill them. Is that clearer? > > No, the story that was written after the fact was changed to fit the prophecies. That’s what I’m saying. > > I know the OT and the Torah and the Dead Sea Scrolls are older than Christ. That is not the argument here. The argument here is that stories of Christ’s life were changed to fit those sources after He died. What you are proposing is even more impossible. You would have to have the entire world play along in the lie and somehow hide it from all history for all time. You do understand that the Jews of that time all hated Christ, but none of them ever question the details of his lineage, his family, his life, death, or burial. If ANYONE out there wanted to expose Him as a fraud in the years following the crucifixion, it was the Jews. Yet they did not deny the details of his life or where he was born. ---
**Author:** ![Lionheartlamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Lionheartlamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lionheartlamb)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/115 "2016-03-09T22:51:45Z")
> [@Melaradark](#): > > Because nothing that can be Googled is ever anything but true? > > That’s as may be, however, that doesn’t mean they are right- though they are likely to be. More importantly, it doesn’t mean everything in the bible about Jesus is true, any more than people agreeing that London exists and is a real place means Harry Potter is true. > > There are tons of reasons to believe otherwise. > > Ok, then you should be able to help me out here. > > Please, cite one contemporary written witness account –written while Jesus was alive- that is NOT in the bible- that describes the life or existence of Jesus or the major events that surround His life/death. > > That is, a third party account from someone who met Jesus that is NOT and never was in the bible; or a third party account recording the major events that occurred at the time, such as the three days of darkness, the dead rising from their graves and talking with people in the streets, the Exodus, the massive Roman Migration taxing and census, Herod slaughtering the first born boys, etc. > > If your claim is true, this should be easy. With all due respect, the burdens on you to disprove the man lived. You can argue he was not the Messiah, but secular history records the man DID live and was crucified. If even the secularists agree he was a real person, then there isn’t much to argue about here. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/116 "2016-03-09T22:53:09Z")
> [@Lionheartlamb](#): > > What you are proposing is even more impossible. > > You would have to have the entire world play along in the lie and somehow hide it from all history for all time. > > You do understand that the Jews of that time all hated Christ, but none of them ever question the details of his lineage, his family, his life, death, or burial. > > If ANYONE out there wanted to expose Him as a fraud in the years following the crucifixion, it was the Jews. > > Yet they did not deny the details of his life or where he was born. This is just ignorance about Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/117 "2016-03-09T22:53:32Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > If killing a sovereign = conquering that soverieign’s nation, the South won the Civil War. I’m sorta a reverse-prophet, myself, but sometimes I get little details wrong. [closes eyes and visualizes] I see President Lincoln being killed at Chevrolet’s Theater. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/118 "2016-03-09T22:54:26Z")
> [@Lionheartlamb](#): > > With all due respect, the burdens on you to disprove the man lived. > > You can argue he was not the Messiah, but secular history records the man DID live and was crucified. > > If even the secularists agree he was a real person, then there isn’t much to argue about here. No-You made the claim-You provide the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Lionheartlamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Lionheartlamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lionheartlamb)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/119 "2016-03-09T22:54:46Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Not how we do things. If you make the assertion, you have to support it yourself, whether by your own reasoning or a cite. This is because, among other reasons, of the fairly obvious fact that if one of us does a Google search and comes up with a citation which is quickly refuted, you could then repudiate that source. > > Ordinarily I would point out that Athena doesn’t consider any of the Christian Bible valid anyway, but I’m too tired for my usual silliness. Jesus is accepted as a real person in secular history. I’m sorry if that bothers you, but its different than saying he was the Messiah. He was a real person. You have to decide if He was who he claimed to be. ---
**Author:** ![Lionheartlamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Lionheartlamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lionheartlamb)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460/120 "2016-03-09T22:56:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No-You made the claim-You provide the evidence. Are you always this wrong with this much intensity? > **[Historicity of Jesus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus)** > > The historicity of Jesus is the question of whether Jesus historically existed (as opposed to being a purely mythological figure). The question of historicity was generally settled in scholarship in the early 20th century.\[note 1\] Today scholars agree that a Jewish man named Jesus of Nazareth did exist in the Herodian Kingdom of Judea and the subsequent Herodian tetrarchy in the 1st century AD, upon whose life and teachings Christianity was later constructed,\[note 1\] but a distinction is There ... From the link:" **“There is “near universal consensus” among scholars that Jesus existed.”** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-prophecy/748460.md?page=7)