# Bible Question: The Promised Land **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 25, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834 "2005-10-25T16:55:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/1 "2005-10-25T16:55:29Z")
In the Old Testament God promises the Israelis a land of their own flowing with milk and honey. In Numbers 34 the boundaries for this land are laid out in pretty specific terms: > [@](#): > > 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Command the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter Canaan, the land that will be allotted to you as an inheritance will have these boundaries: > 3 " 'Your southern side will include some of the Desert of Zin along the border of Edom. On the east, your southern boundary will start from the end of the Salt Sea,4 cross south of Scorpion Pass, continue on to Zin and go south of Kadesh Barnea. Then it will go to Hazar Addar and over to Azmon, 5 where it will turn, join the Wadi of Egypt and end at the Sea. > > ``` > 6 " 'Your western boundary will be the coast of the Great Sea. This will be your boundary on the west. > > 7 " 'For your northern boundary, run a line from the Great Sea to Mount Hor 8 and from Mount Hor to Lebo Hamath. Then the boundary will go to Zedad, 9 continue to Ziphron and end at Hazar Enan. This will be your boundary on the north. > > 10 " 'For your eastern boundary, run a line from Hazar Enan to Shepham. 11 The boundary will go down from Shepham to Riblah on the east side of Ain and continue along the slopes east of the Sea of Kinnereth. 12 Then the boundary will go down along the Jordan and end at the Salt Sea. > " 'This will be your land, with its boundaries on every side.' " > > ``` This brings up two questions: (1) Have the Israelis \*ever \*occupied the entirety of this land at one time? (2) My knowledge of this part of the world is that it doesn’t exactly flow with milk and honey. Was this the best God could do for his chosen people? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/2 "2005-10-25T17:44:57Z")
> [@El Zagna](#): > > (2) My knowledge of this part of the world is that it doesn’t exactly flow with milk and honey. Was this the best God could do for his chosen people? The land did not always look the way it does today. Much of the reason why the area is so arid today is due to entensive deforestation. (Think of the ancient “cedars of Lebanon.”) There is a reason why the region was once referred to as the “Fertile Crescent.” This is discussed is Jared Diamond’s _Guns, Germs, and Steel_. I haven’t read it yet, but I’m willing to bet he also brings it up in his latest book, _Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed_. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/3 "2005-10-25T17:55:53Z")
> [@](#): > > My knowledge of this part of the world is that it doesn’t exactly flow with milk and honey. Was this the best God could do for his chosen people? Palestine wasn’t always the dry, somewhat barren place that it is today. Way back when the Israelites would have been entering it for the first time, it was a fairly nice place to live, with grasslands and forests (think cedars of Lebanon) and plenty of wildlife – lions, bears, deer, antelope, cheetahs, ostriches, wild asses, and so on. A few thousand years of intense farming and grazing have pretty much turned the place into a desert, but with proper irrigation the land is still quite fertile. ---
**Author:** ![aamco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@aamco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aamco)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/4 "2005-10-25T18:07:17Z")
> [@El Zagna](#): > > (1) Have the Israelis \*ever \*occupied the entirety of this land at one time? If anything, it would be during David’s reign, but from sermons and such I have heard that Israel never occupied the entirety of the land because they never finished the job that God required of them (to wipe out X, Y, and Z and take their land). Israel started, got satisfied with what they had, and quit while they were ahead. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/5 "2005-10-26T02:16:03Z")
> [@aamco](#): > > If anything, it would be during David’s reign, but from sermons and such I have heard that Israel never occupied the entirety of the land \*\*because they never finished the job that God required of them \*\*(to wipe out X, Y, and Z and take their land). Israel started, got satisfied with what they had, and quit while they were ahead. I don’t think that’s right. This land was \*promised \*to the Israelis, and it is a promise that was repeated many times, e.g.: > [@](#): > > On that day, God made a covenant with Abram, saying: “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river the Euphrates. The land of the Kenites, Kenizites, Kadmonites; the Chitties, Perizites, Refaim; the Emorites, Canaanites, Gigashites and Yevusites.” (Genesis 15:18-21) The Promised Land was a big, big deal in the OT, and it seems to me that if it was never delivered, something went terribly wrong with either God or his chosen ones. By the way, the best map of the Promised Land that I’ve found so far is [here](http://www.zioninprophecy.com/images/title%20deed%20map%20final8x11.jpg) . ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/6 "2005-10-26T04:25:01Z")
What was it called way back when? When did it start to be called Palestine? And who, genetically, are palestinians? Also, what would happen is Israel tried to take all of tbeir land? This would include Jordan, I think. ---
**Author:** ![RandomLetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8edcca/32.png) [@RandomLetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandomLetters)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/7 "2005-10-26T13:03:50Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > What was it called way back when? When did it start to be called Palestine? And who, genetically, are palestinians? Also, what would happen is Israel tried to take all of tbeir land? This would include Jordan, I think. [Wikipedia has a pretty good article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_%28region%29) on the history of Palestine, including the various names - Israel and Judea, when the Romans had the territory they changed the name from Judea to Palestine, as a slight to the Jewish people after there was a large revolt in 135 AD. Genetically, the Palestinians are a semetic people, not really different from surrounding Arabs in Jordan or Syria. If Israel tried to take all the land, it would mean a large scale war in the area, Iran would speed up its nuclear program, and there would be a lot of suicide bombings. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/8 "2005-10-27T01:31:23Z")
> [@El Zagna](#): > > (2) My knowledge of this part of the world is that it doesn’t exactly flow with milk and honey. Was this the best God could do for his chosen people? It should be pointed out that the milk in question is not cow’s milk but goat’s milk and that the honey in question is not bee’s honey but date honey. And there are plenty of goats and dates in Israel. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/9 "2005-10-27T02:34:00Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > I… the milk in question is not cow’s milk but goat’s milk and that the honey in question is not bee’s honey but date honey. What’s that interpretation based on? The Israelites certainly kept and milked cows, hence the injunction not to boil a calf in the milk of its mother. And they certainly knew about bee honey, evidenced by Samson robbing a hive as well as in the name Deborah. So why the asumption that it was date honey and goat’s milk rather than cow’s milk and bee honey? Actually I doubt anyone made a distinction between cow’s goat’s and ewe’s milk. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/10 "2005-10-27T03:20:43Z")
Well, I think I’ve read enough now to answer my first question. The Israelis have \*\*never \*\*occupied the entirety of the Promised Land at one time. Certainly not to the extent that they could be considered to be somehow in control of or administering the entirety of the region. (Now, at this point I’m probably drifting off into GD land, but so it goes.) I find this amazing. The Promised Land was God’s big reward to his chosen people. It is mentioned over and over in the OT. For the Israelis, it is the motivation behind putting up with so much misery. Yet in the end God doesn’t deliver on his promise, _and that doesn’t seem to matter to anybody!!!_ How can anyone take this particular God seriously when he can’t even deliver a relatively insignicant parcel of land after thousands of years? This is God we’re talking about; the Big G; Mr. Omnipotent; Creator of the Universe. C’mon, buddy, put up or shut up. Since this is still GQ, I’m asking for someone to explain this to me. How does God maintain his credibility with his followers when he has failed his side of the bargain so badley? ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/11 "2005-10-27T04:00:43Z")
From what I’ve heard, God couldn’t fulfill His promise completely until the Israelies accept Jesus as their messiah. I think. Eventually, they will and THEN they get all the land. I think. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/12 "2005-10-27T06:57:51Z")
El Zagna: > [@](#): > > Well, I think I’ve read enough now to answer my first question. The Israelis have never occupied the entirety of the Promised Land at one time. Certainly not to the extent that they could be considered to be somehow in control of or administering the entirety of the region. Do you mean the Israelis (as in the modern-day state) or the Israelites (as in the ancient tribal folks from the Bible)? If the latter, then the answer is pretty obvious: the Bible says that they DID take complete control of the land within those borders. They populated the entire region during the conquests of Joshua (while not yet eradicating the other nations that lived there) and complete control finally came at the hands of King David. In addition, if you want something more “solid” than Biblical history, I can point out that the Hasmonean kings had control over the entire “Promised Land” region as well. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/13 "2005-10-27T08:15:13Z")
Israel isn’t as arid and forbidding as you all assume to be, either. While the southern half is indeed desert, the north is largely Mediterranian forest and scrub, much like Greece or southern Italy. Parts of it, such as the Kinneret area, are positively lush. _Too_ lush, in some places - you hear a lot about Israel “making the desert bloom,” but most early Zionist land reclamation took the form of drying out swamps and marshes on the coastal plains, the Jezreel valley and the Hula basin. And there are still quite a lot of cedars up in Lebanon. Else, why would they have one on their [flag?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lebanon_flag_large.png) ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/14 "2005-10-27T14:24:20Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > the Bible says that they DID take complete control of the land within those borders. They populated the entire region during the conquests of Joshua (while not yet eradicating the other nations that lived there) and complete control finally came at the hands of King David. Ah, yes. A quick review of Joshua and 2 Samuel shows that to be true. Thanks for the help. There still seems to be a disconnect here between the build up of the importance of the Promised Land and the rather inconsequential coverage of the actual achievement. It’s like opening up the Chicago Tribune today and seeing the story of the White Sox World Series victory buried on page 2. Now I have a follow up question. From what I can tell, it took about 450 years from God’s original promise to the delivery of that promise, and even then the control of the Promised Land lasted only about one generation before it started to slip away. Is that about right? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/15 "2005-10-27T14:52:51Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > From what I’ve heard, God couldn’t fulfill His promise completely until the Israelies accept Jesus as their messiah. I think. Eventually, they will and THEN they get all the land. I think. Ah, so it’s the Jews’ fault, is it? Reminds me of faith healers - if you can’t get healed, it’s because YOU didn’t have enough faith. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/16 "2005-10-27T15:18:52Z")
El Zagna: > [@](#): > > Now I have a follow up question. From what I can tell, it took about 450 years from God’s original promise to the delivery of that promise, and even then the control of the Promised Land lasted only about one generation before it started to slip away. Is that about right? Yes to the first and no to the second. The conquest-to-the-point-of-settlement was complete by the time Joshua died. Strangely, it never specifies in the Bible exactly how long Joshua led the Israelites for, but I believe it was calculated (based on the periods of the various Judges) as no greater than 31 years. However, once the Israelites settled the land, they preferred to actually _settle_ - each man to his grapevine and fig tree. They preferred that the occasional uprisings of non-Israelite inhabitants or invasions by external nations be met by a temporary leader to restore the immediate tranquility. G-d promised to aid them in their battles, but if they weren’t interested in fighting, there was no promise that he’d go ahead and kill them without their involvement. It wasn’t until the time of Samuel that the Israelites were interested in a more activist leader. Once they demanded a king, it was not long before David established complete control over the Promised Land. As for its “slipping away,” the entire land remained in Israelite hands for much more than a single generation - it was for approximately 300 years. Rulership over a large portion of it slipped out of the hands of the Davidic dynasty, but until the Assyrian conquests, it was still Israelites from one kingdom or another in control of it. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/17 "2005-10-27T15:32:05Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > What was it called way back when? When did it start to be called Palestine? And who, genetically, are palestinians? It was called various names, mostly “Israel” or “Shomron” for the Northern Kingdom and “Yehuda” for the Southern, as well as other names for other peoples populatin the region (such as “Edom”, “Moab” etc… including, until they sort of faded away, “Pleshet” for the area around Gaza where the “Philistines” (remember Goliath?) lived. By the time the Romans came on the scene, the kingdom of Israel had been gone for quite some time. As mentioned, they re-named “Judea” to “Palestine” (and “Jerusalem” to “Aelia Capitolina”) as part of the payback for the “Great Revolt”. Now the Roman-day “Palestine” had **nothing** to do with Arabs! This name was given after the **Philistines**. The name “Palestinians” was given to the Arab residents of this part of the world because… well, they’re living in “Palestine”, so that’s what we’ll call them. BTW, during the British Mandate, **all** residents of “Palestine”, Jews and Arabs, were called “Palestinians”. Israel took its name upon independence, the various Arab National Movements clamoring to regain all of the area continued to self-style themselves as “Palestinians” (or rather, even closer to the original name, “ **Ph** alestinians”, since Arabic pretty much lacks the “P” sound) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-question-the-promised-land/327834/18 "2005-10-27T16:16:28Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > What’s that interpretation based on? Rashi to Exodus 13:5. Zev Steinhardt