# Bible Questions: What's up with the OLD guys? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 6, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282 "2004-09-06T00:29:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282/41 "2004-09-07T16:51:08Z")
> [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > I would think that if God was being theoretical, He would have told us. And while I _love_ learning Jewish tradition, on this point I’ve gotta go with what scripture says. The verse said man’s days would be 120 years, and yet after the flood people kept living longer than that, thus God was not setting a time limit on lifespan. Fair enough. The Jewish commentaries are not “canonical,” as it were. You’re free to disagree. I simply mentioned that this interpretation is brought down. > [@](#): > > Also, we don’t know when Job lived. It’s the oldest book of the Bible, no? He may have been pre-flood (probably not but you never know). Probably wouldn’t have been pre-flood, as he lived in the land of Utz. Utz is a son of Nachor, Abraham’s brother; and Abraham was most certainly post-Deluge. In any event, Jewish tradition teaches that Job was a contemporary of Moses and that Moses wrote the book of Job. > [@](#): > > As far as the lifespans thing goes, it could be that as time goes on, mankind is breaking down physically. Adam sinned, but he was still created perfect. It probably took a while for DNA to get corrupted, plus he lived in a perfect world where there was no toxic waste and holes in the ozone layer. That’s fine and well, but then why didn’t the drop-off in lifespans occur until 11 generations later? Some of Adam’s descendants lived even longer than he did. > [@](#): > > I could definitely see it taking 120 years to build the ark. I don’t, however, see how this “brings down” the idea that the verse was a prophecy that in 120 years something was going to happen. It doesn’t. I wasn’t arguing that point with you. > [@](#): > > God will give people chance after chance after chance to repent, and it’s possible that the flood never would have happened if the people HAD repented (I could make an argument that the flood would have happened anyway for a totally different reason, but I’m not going to hijack), but I think it’s unlikely. Some prophecies in scripture are conditional: “_if_ X does/doesn’t happen, then Y will/won’t happen” – and then some prophecies are just flat out “this is going to happen and there’s nothing you can do about it but get ready.” As God sees the end from the beginning, He already knew that the people wouldn’t repent, knew it would take Noah a while to build the boat so He gave him plenty of time to do it. When God said “I’m going to wipe out mankind” He didn’t qualify it by saying “unless they repent” which makes me think it was one of those “set in stone regardless” prophecies. Indeed. Jewish tradition (there I go using that term again) teaches that “good” prophecies are unconditional while “bad” prophecies can be averted by repentence. I don’t think it’s a given that there HAD to be a flood after 120 years. Furthermore, sometimes “bad” prophecies are given in a way that they can be re-interpreted. For example, take Jonah’s prophecy to Nineveh. The prophecy was that “in three days Nineveh would be overturned.” Well, when we’re talking Bible here and we hear about cities being overturned, we tend to think of Sodom and Gommorah – and that certain could have been an end result of the prophecy. But instead, there was a reinterpretation of it. Nineveh was overturned when Jonah delivered his prophecy - the deeds of the people and there attitudes were overturned, not the actual, literal city. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282/42 "2004-09-07T16:57:17Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > Way back when I took a ‘Bible As History’ class, we discussed this very problem. Many people in the class posited that there was some mistranslation of the word year-- until the prof pointed out that everything in the old testament was written in the same language, so there was no place for a mistranslation to pop up. Not too likely. There are two distinct words in the Hebrew language for year and month, with very different roots and meanings. The word for month is _chodesh_. It has the same root as the word _chadash_ meaning “new.” The reason is that each month, the moon (we’re talking about lunar months here) is seemingly renewed. The word for year is _shanah_. It has the same root as the word _shoneh_ meaning “to repeat.” This is because the seasons, holidays, astronomical sights, etc. all tend to repeat year after year after year. As **Walloon** pointed out, there is no ambiguity regarding these two words. In fact, both of these words are used in the flood story itself. Numerous “events” in the flood are described as happening on X day of Y month; and the whole thing is being described as happening in the 600th year of Noah’s life. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![brane\_damaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a587f6/32.png) [@brane\_damaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brane_damaj)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282/43 "2004-09-07T17:00:32Z")
Reading all of the reasoning and debates on how people could have lived to be 900+ in the old days while dying much earlier today has always struck me as reminiscent of trekkies trying to make rational sense out of an episode of Voyager. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282/44 "2004-09-07T17:08:11Z")
> [@bnorton](#): > > I find myself staying at my folks house a lot these days and while I’m there I read the Bible every night before going to bed. (Ain’t I a good son?) As I am going along I am struck by many things that I think the Dopers could help me understand. So this is the first of what I expect will be many Bible related questions. > > In Genesis everyone seems to live to a very old age, and the Bible seems to make a big deal out of exactly how long each of the main characters lived. There is no clue as to why this was so or why or when people started dying at normal ages. What’s the significance of these very long lives? It’s the assumption that if you lived a _l o n g_ time, you must be blest by God. :eek: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Abbie\_Carmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Abbie\_Carmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abbie_Carmichael)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282/45 "2004-09-07T17:16:19Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > Probably wouldn’t have been pre-flood, as he lived in the land of Utz. Utz is a son of Nachor, Abraham’s brother; and Abraham was most certainly post-Deluge. Yep, you’re right. I stand corrected 🙂 (Although I found another guy named Uz that was Noah’s grandson …) **That’s fine and well, but then why didn’t the drop-off in lifespans occur until 11 generations later? Some of Adam’s descendants lived even longer than he did.** Because the flood screwed up nature really really badly, which is what caused lifespans to start decreasing? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282/46 "2004-09-07T17:53:20Z")
> [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > Because the flood screwed up nature really really badly, which is what caused lifespans to start decreasing? But then you’re agreeing that it wasn’t Adam’s sin but the flood, which was the catalyst for the shortening lifespan. I then pose this question to you: Had mankind not gone on a downward spiral after Adam’s sin and the flood not necessary, would the lifespan of mankind continually shortened? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2004, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282/47 "2004-09-08T02:02:10Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Re-read my post. Did I give an opinion on whether Noah existed? No. Did I give an opinion on whether there was a Great Flood? No. > > I made a logical argument: if this, than that. WTF? Read the other posters and argue with them. Of all the posters I agree with you the most. Do you want me to say I don’t believe in Noah and the flood. No, I don’t, but there are very few persons on this thread that are arguing anything close to that. If I want to comment of Noah and the flood that is my business. Go pick on someone else. :putz: ---
**Author:** ![Grimpen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/82dd89/32.png) [@Grimpen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grimpen)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282/48 "2004-09-08T03:14:05Z")
> [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > The verse said man’s days would be 120 years, and yet after the flood people kept living longer than that, thus God was not setting a time limit on lifespan. To be more precise: a very few people are recorded as living longer than that. No other information is given about “normal” lifespans. Consider “three score and ten, or by reason of strength fourscore.” Yet I know several people who are in their nineties; but I don’t understand that to contradict scripture. It seems to me that the most natural interpretation of the verse is that it refers to a reduction in normal lifespan. The Bible is not written in code; on the whole, attempts to find secrets hidden in the wording don’t work. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282/49 "2004-09-08T14:41:30Z")
Maybe this is a stupid question. **Zev** , Maybe you can help with this? This might be presumptious as I don’t know if you speak or read hebrew, but in Hebrew there is a natural gematria in that words/letters have numerical equivalents. This works both ways I’m sure. So do the patriarchs’ ages in Genesis have a cryptic word meaning? Are the numbers/letters significant in some way? Adam lived 930 years Seth lived 912 years Enosh lived 905 years Kenan lived 910 years Mahalalel lived 895 years Jared lived 962 years Enoch lived 365 years. Methuselah lived 969 years Lamech lived 777 years Noah lived 950 years 8675 867.5 average age (Just for easy reference and because I wanted to know the average age of the 10 generations.) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282/50 "2004-09-08T14:47:52Z")
Intriguingly, there are a couple of references in Genesis to a shadowy figure called “Eliezer of Damascus” who appears to have been a factotum to Abraham. See, for example, Gen 15:2. But just before this, at Gen 14:14, Abraham is said to have taken the men of his household, 318 in number, out as a “commando force” raiding the retreating armies after the Battle of Nine Kings described at the beginning of that chapter. However, 318 is represented in Hebrew notation by LZR, the letters that spell out Eliezer. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2004, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282/51 "2004-09-08T13:14:21Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Intriguingly, there are a couple of references in Genesis to a shadowy figure called “Eliezer of Damascus” who appears to have been a factotum to Abraham. See, for example, Gen 15:2. But just before this, at Gen 14:14, Abraham is said to have taken the men of his household, 318 in number, out as a “commando force” raiding the retreating armies after the Battle of Nine Kings described at the beginning of that chapter. However, 318 is represented in Hebrew notation by LZR, the letters that spell out Eliezer. There are numerous Midrashim about Eliezer. He is Abraham’s faithful servant. He is the (unnamed in the text) one who goes to find a wife for Isaac and is also one of the two who go with Abraham to the Binding of Isaac. Many of the Midrashim also point out the same thing that you do, **Polycarp** that the gematria of “Eliezer” is 318 and suggest that instead of 318 people, he simply took Eliezer. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2004, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282/52 "2004-09-08T17:40:06Z")
> [@devilsknew](#): > > Maybe this is a stupid question. > **Zev** , Maybe you can help with this? This might be presumptious as I don’t know if you speak or read hebrew, but in Hebrew there is a natural gematria in that words/letters have numerical equivalents. This works both ways I’m sure. So do the patriarchs’ ages in Genesis have a cryptic word meaning? Are the numbers/letters significant in some way? > > Adam lived 930 years > Seth lived 912 years > Enosh lived 905 years > Kenan lived 910 years > Mahalalel lived 895 years > Jared lived 962 years > Enoch lived 365 years. > Methuselah lived 969 years > Lamech lived 777 years > Noah lived 950 years > > 8675 > 867.5 average age > > (Just for easy reference and because I wanted to know the average age of the 10 generations.) I do speak and read Hebrew. To my knowledge, there is nothing special about any of those numbers. I always found Enoch’s age of 365 to be a little too coincedental with the number of days in a year (considering he died “prematurely”). Adam’s age of 930 is accounted for in a Midrash. The verse states that Adam would die on the day he ate from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. The same Midrash quotes the verse in Psalms equating a “Heavenly Day” with 1000 years. It then goes on to state that Adam foresaw that King David would die shortly after birth and “gave” 70 years of his life to David as a “gift,” leaving him with 930 years. Methuselah, as others have pointed out died in the same year as the flood and many Jewish commentators point out that the extra week given was for mourning for Methuselah. I’m not aware of any other significance to any of the other ages of the people mentioned. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282/53 "2004-09-08T20:48:15Z")
Just for the record, **Zev** ’s post #49 is in response to my post #51 – we got them in very shortly before the shift to the new server, which apparently re-collated them to put response before its referent. (Either that, or **Zev** is using Kabbalistic powers to know what I’m going to post next! ::: tinfoil hat smiley ::: ;j :eek: ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282/54 "2004-09-09T00:33:59Z")
I found this [link](http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/dave_matson/young-earth/specific_arguments/bible_dates.html) that makes an argument for the ages being linked to the custom of deification by overinflation of antedeluvian Mesopotamian kings. **Musicat’s** original contention. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-questions-whats-up-with-the-old-guys/263282.md?page=2)