# Bible stories... Fiction or the word of a God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 23, 2014, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829 "2014-07-23T10:50:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/101 "2014-09-02T23:23:36Z")
> [@entomos](#): > > I’m certainly not going to defend whatever sins have been committed by anyone claiming to be doing it for Jesus or for God, but I’m also not going to concede that whatever sins you are referring to were all committed by followers of Jesus. In any case, it is a sinful world and we all need saving, no exceptions. Yeah, I laughed at the joke, but as far as what Jesus suffered for us, I don’t think we really know the extent of it. I suspect it was a longer weekend than anyone can imagine. And while that may be true - he knew, going into it, that it would end. And anything you may think “of the extent of it” - is what you imagine it to be - since there is simply no evidence, or anything beyond supposition, to suggest it wasn’t just a 3 day nap. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/102 "2014-09-02T23:42:02Z")
> [@entomos](#): > > For some reason, it seems this is confusing the point made. My observation is that archaeological evidence does not disprove the Bible at historical points, that it is either neutral or supports it. I do concede that certain interpretations may end up being disproved, but that is inevitable when there are competing interpretations. There have been skeptical reservations raised because the Bible mentions something not evidenced elsewhere. But such reservations continue to be shown to be unfounded, as the tendency is to eventually show that the Bible was right all along. The Bible is unique. It continues to defy the odds and scatter such skepticism. At some point, it is unreasonable to maintain that sort of skepticism. Whoops! Well, what about … Whoops! Well, what about… Which exactly of my points do you think might be true because there is no evidence either way? We have tons of evidence the flood never happened. People have been all over the Sinai and have never seen evidence of the immense encampment there. Your assertion that the Bible is always right doesn’t quite cut it. The Bible doesn’t do nearly so well with the part of the archeological community that doesn’t know the answer in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/103 "2014-09-02T23:51:27Z")
> [@entomos](#): > > I’m certainly not going to defend whatever sins have been committed by anyone claiming to be doing it for Jesus or for God, but I’m also not going to concede that whatever sins you are referring to were all committed by followers of Jesus. In any case, it is a sinful world and we all need saving, no exceptions. Yeah, I laughed at the joke, but as far as what Jesus suffered for us, I don’t think we really know the extent of it. I suspect it was a longer weekend than anyone can imagine. Sure - members of the church set up by Peter had nothing to do with Jesus. The reasons they did it were very Biblical. If not being baptized means you are in for an eternity of torment, any small amount of torture to force Christianity on someone is worth it. Right? As for God doing the interpreting, how do you know what God thinks? Saying Jesus is God because Jesus interpreted the prophecies a certain way, and this must be correct because he is God is a bit circular, right? My real last name qualifies me to be the Messiah. I wasn’t born in Bethlehem but I’ve been to Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, close enough. That makes me God, and if you don’t like my interpretation, who are you to argue with God? Not that I’m going to take the job. Who wants to be King of Israel until they get some oil, and I heard it doesn’t pay enough. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/104 "2014-09-02T23:53:48Z")
> [@simster](#): > > And while that may be true - he knew, going into it, that it would end. > > And anything you may think “of the extent of it” - is what you imagine it to be - since there is simply no evidence, or anything beyond supposition, to suggest it wasn’t just a 3 day nap. There isn’t a lot of evidence that it was any nap. Except a permanent one. And he’s late in returning, though I guess the traffic on I-666 is really hellish. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/105 "2014-09-04T12:26:59Z")
> [@entomos](#): > > Before giving my response, let me share one rabbi’s nutshell history of the Jews: “They tried to kill us. We survived. Let’s eat!” > > I do agree the Bible is a collection of writings, but a very special one with a unifying theme. However, it is not quite the history of the Jews, but rather of God and man. Maybe you could call it a myth, but in this case, the myth is true and it’s a love story. God does have a competitor in the story, namely sin. And sin has an advocate, the Devil. Our entire space-time continuum of matter and energy is the stage for God to demonstrate his love for us in a way no perfect world could. Now you can whine all you want that it should never have been this way, many do. Actually, I suspect we all do at certain points along the way. But it was never meant to be the end and our lifetimes here are quite short, especially in comparison to eternity. The point is to embrace love, something evidently not so readily done, given all we read and see in the news and in history, and, if we are honest, in our own selves. For God to willingly suffer the extreme humiliation of Jesus for people who are as stubbornly rebellious as we have been and in that act take care of all the ultimate consequences of our rebellion… Well, that kind of love to me is just amazing and irresistible. And yet God does not force even that conclusion on anyone. Hell, if you think you’ve got something better and would rather be left alone to your own devices, that is your choice. Just don’t imagine you will be left to perpetrate it on others. > > From the Westminster Shorter Catechism: > > **Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?** > > A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, [a] and to enjoy him for ever. \*\* If mans end is to just glorify God then that God would be an egotist, If God is All knowing and ahead of time and what would happen then God would be responsible for man’s weakness . He also should have known that Satan and some angels would rebel. I am just a weak human who knows very little but I would not bring a child into the world if I knew that child would be evil and harm my other children, I would not have them. God should be kinder and more loving than me! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/106 "2014-09-04T12:28:05Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > What God intended by the prophecy, and how the contemporary Jews interpreted it, are two different things. How do you know God’s intentions? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/107 "2014-09-04T12:32:19Z")
> [@entomos](#): > > For some reason, it seems this is confusing the point made. My observation is that archaeological evidence does not disprove the Bible at historical points, that it is either neutral or supports it. I do concede that certain interpretations may end up being disproved, but that is inevitable when there are competing interpretations. There have been skeptical reservations raised because the Bible mentions something not evidenced elsewhere. But such reservations continue to be shown to be unfounded, as the tendency is to eventually show that the Bible was right all along. The Bible is unique. It continues to defy the odds and scatter such skepticism. At some point, it is unreasonable to maintain that sort of skepticism. Whoops! Well, what about … Whoops! Well, what about… Archaelogy and scientific testing proved a lot did not happen as written in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/108 "2014-09-04T12:34:16Z")
> [@entomos](#): > > I’m certainly not going to defend whatever sins have been committed by anyone claiming to be doing it for Jesus or for God, but I’m also not going to concede that whatever sins you are referring to were all committed by followers of Jesus. In any case, it is a sinful world and we all need saving, no exceptions. Yeah, I laughed at the joke, but as far as what Jesus suffered for us, I don’t think we really know the extent of it. I suspect it was a longer weekend than anyone can imagine. Jesus said his purpose was for the lost sheep of Israel, not to save the whole world. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/109 "2014-09-04T16:34:36Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Jesus said his purpose was for the lost sheep of Israel, not to save the whole world. Though, of course, in that story, he helps the gentile (Canaanite) woman. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/110 "2014-09-04T16:42:57Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > There isn’t a lot of evidence that it was any nap. Except a permanent one. And he’s late in returning, though I guess the traffic on I-666 is really hellish. Well, the biblical account has him waking up after three days - so, if we take that at face value - all we know is that - to my recollection - he doesn’t recount his time “on the other side” and any reports of it would be supposition. His second, second return (he came, he went, he came back, he left again) is what we’re still waiting for. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/111 "2014-09-04T20:48:00Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Well, the biblical account has him waking up after three days - so, if we take that at face value - all we know is that - to my recollection - he doesn’t recount his time “on the other side” and any reports of it would be supposition. > > His second, second return (he came, he went, he came back, he left again) is what we’re still waiting for. Two days, actually. I know he reserved for 3, but I suppose they have early checkout. But, like I said, not a lot of evidence he returned the first time. And by not a lot I mean none. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/112 "2014-09-04T21:24:00Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Two days, actually. I know he reserved for 3, but I suppose they have early checkout. But, like I said, not a lot of evidence he returned the first time. And by not a lot I mean none. Wait - you mean that 3rd hand writings and belief isn’t evidence? pshaw… really - pshaw… Next thing you’ll tell me that accepting swords from women lyin’ around in ponds is not a good way to establish a government? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/113 "2014-09-07T04:48:21Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I would agree if every story in the Bible was some supergod character like Hercules or Athena or Zeus going around doing daring deeds. > > But the rest of the Bible talks about people doing good or serving God. For example Nehemiah, who was a cup bearer and close advisor to the Babylonian King Artexerxes, who nonetheless, wanted to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the city 150 years after its destruction and his peoples exile. Artexexes is inspired to not only allow Nehemiah to do this, but provides money, free passage, and material support. It’s a great story and one you should read. > > As for Jesus himself, its amazing to me that in only 3 years of ministry he inspired 12 of his disciples to be missionaries to the world, leading to a movement that really within 100 years or so changed the Roman empire. We now know that the early followers of Jesus. were very divided about Jesus. So much was written after the fact that the truth was somehow not reported. Until Constantine called the bishops of the Orthudox church and the Roman church formed and agreement what a Christian was to do , be united on what was inspired and what was not. Using it as a political movement. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/114 "2014-09-07T04:51:49Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I would agree if every story in the Bible was some supergod character like Hercules or Athena or Zeus going around doing daring deeds. > > But the rest of the Bible talks about people doing good or serving God. For example Nehemiah, who was a cup bearer and close advisor to the Babylonian King Artexerxes, who nonetheless, wanted to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the city 150 years after its destruction and his peoples exile. Artexexes is inspired to not only allow Nehemiah to do this, but provides money, free passage, and material support. It’s a great story and one you should read. > > As for Jesus himself, its amazing to me that in only 3 years of ministry he inspired 12 of his disciples to be missionaries to the world, leading to a movement that really within 100 years or so changed the Roman empire. Of course some people will believe anyone they choose to follow, we have the Jim Jones etc. who were able to convince them to commit suicide. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/115 "2014-09-07T05:00:54Z")
> [@entomos](#): > > I’m certainly not going to defend whatever sins have been committed by anyone claiming to be doing it for Jesus or for God, but I’m also not going to concede that whatever sins you are referring to were all committed by followers of Jesus. In any case, it is a sinful world and we all need saving, no exceptions. Yeah, I laughed at the joke, but as far as what Jesus suffered for us, I don’t think we really know the extent of it. I suspect it was a longer weekend than anyone can imagine. Why did Jesus tell the non Jewish Woman." I cam only for the lost sheep of Israel"? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/116 "2014-09-08T02:49:39Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > How do you know God’s intentions? I don’t, for sure. I do, however, on the basis of my own reason and judgment of the evidence, think that the Gospels are more likely to be history than fiction, and therefore that the interpretation of the prophecies that coheres with the events of the Gospels is more likely I also (and again, this is a judgment call) think that the idea that, for example, the Suffering Servant chapters of Isaiah are self-evidently talking about a person (to wit, Jesus Christ), makes much more sense than the idea that they are talking about the personified nation of Israel. Again, I can’t prove that to you, and am not going to try, though I suspect that most neutral observers looking at the passage would naturally agree with me, rather than with you. (I’ve tried this experiment with a few secular/atheist folks I know, with little previous knowledge of the Bible, and they’re usually baffled to realize when the passage was written). ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/117 "2014-09-08T02:50:44Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Why did Jesus tell the non Jewish Woman." I cam only for the lost sheep of Israel"? He was testing her faith, I’d imagine. Just as His Father was with Abraham on Mount Moriah. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/118 "2014-09-08T02:52:54Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > He was testing her faith, I’d imagine. Just as His Father was with Abraham on Mount Moriah. Lest this get people accusing me of believeing that Abraham was historical: I don’t. I think the story of Abraham is a myth (in the strict sense of the word). Maybe it happened, maybe it didn’t, I have no clue either way. But it serves the important purpose (for Christians) of foreshadowing Jesus Christ. The story about the Syrophoenician woman conveys the same message, but I take it (unlike Abraham) as historical. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/119 "2014-09-08T02:59:55Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > He was testing her faith, I’d imagine. Just as His Father was with Abraham on Mount Moriah. I’m trying to figure out how to say this. The idea of a God who, having come to a world full of unbearable suffering that He himself created, offers salvation but then lies to people who want it, telling them that they’re not welcome, as a way of testing their faith–I do not find that idea reconcilable with the idea of a loving God. It sounds less Christ-y, more Loki. Even taking the story as true, I’d draw very different conclusions about the nature of God from it. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829/120 "2014-09-08T11:44:53Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Though, of course, in that story, he helps the gentile (Canaanite) woman. Yes he helped her but that was not his purpose in Coming. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-stories-fiction-or-the-word-of-a-god/693829.md?page=7)