# Bible verses: 2 Kings 2:23-24; Numbers 5:11-31 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473 "2013-07-25T12:51:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/1 "2013-07-25T12:51:48Z")
> [@](#): > > 2 Kings 2:23-25 > King James Version (KJV) > 23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. > 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. > [@Anybody interested in a SDMB weekly Bible study?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-interested-in-a-sdmb-weekly-bible-study/664376/23): > > Starting a new thread may be appropriate; however, the answer is pretty simple: the Lord doesn’t take kindly to young persons disrespecting their elders, and especially not a Prophet, and there are consequences if they do. I don’t think the punishment fits the crime. How about you? > [@](#): > > Keep in mind that these were not necessarily “children” - that’s an interpretation thing. In Jewish custom, “children” were anyone not “of age,” and that age was fairly advanced. Also, rebellious children (teenagers) who did not comply were stoned by their parents in this society. I don’t think it’s right to stone rebellious teenagers either. > [@](#): > > The lesson here is, “Don’t disrespect your elders or the Lord will send a bear to eat you!” That’s what I get out of it too. However I’ve been accused of taking bible verses too literally. So I wonder if any of the liberal Christains around here might be able to point out any deeper metaphorical religious truths from the passage. > [@Anybody interested in a SDMB weekly Bible study?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anybody-interested-in-a-sdmb-weekly-bible-study/664376/37): > > There are two milestones of which I’m aware: the Bar Mitzvah which you mention (did this exist in Elisha’s time?), but then also the age of 30, when a Jewish male could assume the mantle of his father’s household. Another question I have is how is it that every internet apologist is able to better interpret ancient texts better than the people who do it professionally? > [@Biblehub](#): > > International Version (©2011) > From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” > > New Living Translation (©2007) > Elisha left Jericho and went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, a group of boys from the town began mocking and making fun of him. “Go away, baldy!” they chanted. “Go away, baldy!” > > English Standard Version (©2001) > He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” > > New American Standard Bible (©1995) > Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” > > King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) > And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. > > Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009) > From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking up the path, some small boys came out of the city and harassed him, chanting, “Go up, baldy! Go up, baldy!” > > International Standard Version (©2012) > Later, Elisha left there to go up to Bethel, and as he was traveling along the road, some insignificant young men came from the city and started mocking him. They told him, “Get on up, baldy! Get on up, baldy!” > > NET Bible (©2006) > He went up from there to Bethel. As he was traveling up the road, some young boys came out of the city and made fun of him, saying, “Go on up, baldy! Go on up, baldy!” > > GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995) > From there he went to Bethel. As he walked along the road, some boys came out of the city and mocked him. They said, “Go away, baldy! Go away!” > > King James 2000 Bible (©2003) > And he went up from there unto Beth-el: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth youths out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, you bald head; go up, you bald head. > > American King James Version > And he went up from there to Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said to him, Go up, you bald head; go up, you bald head. > > American Standard Version > And he went up from thence unto Beth-el; and as he was going up by the way, there came forth young lads out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou baldhead; go up, thou baldhead. > > Douay-Rheims Bible > And he went up from thence to Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, little boys came out of the city and mocked him, saying: Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. > > Darby Bible Translation > And he went up from thence to Bethel, and as he went up by the way, there came forth little boys out of the city, and mocked him, and said to him, Go up, bald head; go up, bald head! > > English Revised Version > And he went up from thence unto Beth-el: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. > > Webster’s Bible Translation > And he went up from thence to Beth-el: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said to him, Go up, thou bald-head; go up, thou bald-head. > > World English Bible > He went up from there to Bethel. As he was going up by the way, some youths came out of the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldy! Go up, you baldhead!” > > Young’s Literal Translation > And he goeth up thence to Beth-El, and he is going up in the way, and little youths have come out from the city, and scoff at him, and say to him, ‘Go up, bald-head! go up, bald-head!’ > [@DirkGntly](#): > > In either case, these weren’t “children” as we think of them; these were likely late teens or young adults. A) How do you know they weren’t “children” as we think of them? B) If true, does that really make the story better? ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/2 "2013-07-25T12:56:57Z")
Those quotes have it both ways- ‘little children’ and ‘young men’. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/3 "2013-07-25T13:00:44Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I don’t think the punishment fits the crime. How about you? Fucking brats had it coming. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/4 "2013-07-25T13:04:55Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Those quotes have it both ways- ‘little children’ and ‘young men’. “Young men” was used all of once, out of 18 translations, and again I ask, does that make the story better? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/5 "2013-07-25T13:06:50Z")
I’ll bet it never happened. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/6 "2013-07-25T13:13:34Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The lesson here is, “Don’t disrespect your elders or the Lord will send a bear to eat you!” > > That’s what I get out of it too. _Post hoc ergo propter hoc_? The text doesn’t explicitly say that God sent the bears, or even that there was any direct connection between Elisha’s cursing and the bears’ appearance. It’s certainly natural to draw that conclusion, but I don’t know whether it’s fair to assume (and a literal reading doesn’t _require_ it, at any rate). ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/7 "2013-07-25T13:19:11Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > “Young men” was used all of once, out of 18 translations, and again I ask, does that make the story better? I have read that referring to them as “children” is a mistranslation, but I share your puzzlement as to why, in that case, even modern translations can’t agree on the correct wording. I do think it makes a difference whether Elisha was accosted by a mob (at least 42) of young hoodlums or of kindergartners. I have also heard that, in that context, “Go up, thou bald head” was a major insult, or even a threat; [here’s one online cite](http://carm.org/why-did-god-kill-42-lads-merely-saying-elisha-was-bald) I could find. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/8 "2013-07-25T13:19:25Z")
Not religious, but I’ll throw my hat in the ring. Sure, the punishment seems barbarous to us in the modern world, but religious law is not interested in whether or not you think it’s barbarous. If God thinks something is right or wrong, he is the final authority on that. One of the commandments is “Honor thy father and mother”, which is sometimes broadly interpreted as “Honor thy elders” as opposed to mere familial piety. In that light, the children are violating not just a side rule, but a COMMANDMENT! (I am aware that Judaism has identified 700 odd commandments in the Torah, but the big 10 are given more weight). They have committed a grave sin. Whether or not you think it’s a sin, or it’s a big sin, is irrelevant. God thinks it’s a sin, so it is. Also, this is a demonstration of the power faith brings. Elisha has a strong faith in his God, so when he curses the children, bad things actually happen. If he had weak faith, or no faith, his curses would be fairly meaningless. It’s demonstrating the power that faith in his God brings him, a tale that is repeated over and over in both Testaments. There’s the English saying “If you don’t want to do the time, don’t do the crime”. The children here violated the religious law, and they were punished. It’s a nontraditional means of punishment (although, how often does God actually smite people with a lightning bolt?), but a punishment nonetheless. From a non-religious standpoint, it could be a convenient explanation for how some children were killed in a bear attack. I’m sure those happened back in the day - they still happen now. Some bears attack some children, and Elisha makes cold, calculating use of the event to make a parable about not insulting bald people. Or, when people ask why Elisha didn’t help, he claims he summoned the bears with God’s wrath, which will have the double effect of hindering prosecution (who wants to arrest someone that can summon bears?) and intriguing the followers he will preach to (dude, my crappy religion just helps my crops grow. That dude can call forth attack bears). Or maybe Elisha just was tired of having fun poke at his chrome dome and made up a story to get people off his back. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/9 "2013-07-25T13:26:11Z")
I don’t know of anything particularly deep or interesting that can be said about this verse. Respect elders, don’t mess with prophets, Elisha was bona fide, etc. Pretty much the surface reading. Interestingly, there is a Talmudic tradition that Elisha was punished for this act. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/10 "2013-07-25T13:28:26Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Interestingly, there is a Talmudic tradition that Elisha was punished for this act. What was the punishment and what was the reasoning? It would seem to me that if God didn’t want Elisha to curse the children, God wouldn’t have sent the bears. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/11 "2013-07-25T13:31:15Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > What was the punishment and what was the reasoning? It would seem to me that if God didn’t want Elisha to curse the children, God wouldn’t have sent the bears. He got sick (that’s all it says) and the Talmud is weird about prophets’ relation to God. There’s often a relation of mutual frustration depicted between them, and God is often depicted as listening to prophets, sometimes against his better judgment. (You can see elements of this in the Old Testament itself… witness Jonah for the former, and I’m having trouble remembering specifics on the latter.) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/12 "2013-07-25T13:33:00Z")
I think it’s pretty deep and significant that the mob consisted of exactly 42 people. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/13 "2013-07-25T13:41:19Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > He got sick (that’s all it says) and the Talmud is weird about prophets’ relation to God. Well there you have it. Make fun of a bald man, and God has you torn to shreds by bears. Curse little children so they are torn to shreds by bears, and God gives you the sniffles. Makes sense to me.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/14 "2013-07-25T13:46:49Z")
I completely agree. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/15 "2013-07-25T13:48:33Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > So I wonder if any of the liberal Christians around here might be able to point out any deeper metaphorical religious truths from the passage. Is that your ‘gotcha’? The “religious truth” here is not metaphorical - the lesson is that God is not pleased by young people disrespecting their elders, especially prophets of God. To modern sensibilities the punishment is disproportionately brutal for what sounds like a mild insult, but the incident has to be placed in context - this was ancient Israel thousands of years ago. It’s hardly the only incident in the Old Testament that describes violence that we would find appalling today (e.g. the ethnic cleansing undertaken by Joshua.) ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/16 "2013-07-25T13:51:52Z")
Sorry, to me, this has always sounded like a made up horror story to keep kids in line. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/17 "2013-07-25T13:53:59Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Is that your ‘gotcha’? The “religious truth” here is not metaphorical - the lesson is that God is not pleased by young people disrespecting their elders, especially prophets of God. Do you think the event really happened? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/18 "2013-07-25T13:54:36Z")
Why 42? Meh… there happened to be 42 youths/children there or all but the 42 got a way. However, is it odd that the question that I want answered the most is - why bears? Were bears indigenous to the are in question at that time? Why not wolves? Or why not puma? I’m not trying to be flippant in asking this. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/19 "2013-07-25T13:58:50Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Those quotes have it both ways- ‘little children’ and ‘young men’. I’ve heard this too - however, if I recall correctly, you were considered a ‘man’ at 13 back in those days, weren’t you? So Children would be \<13 While ‘young men’ would be what, 13-20? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/20 "2013-07-25T13:59:53Z")
The view of God as a personal God is basically New Testament. In the OT, he’s much more the God of the nation of Israel. Look at the whole chapter: Elijah is taken by a whirlwind up to heaven, giving Elisha his mantle. The rest of chapter is given over to establishing Elisha’s credibility as Elijah’s successor: a search for Elijah proves unfruitful, Elisha purifies a spring, giving the city fresh water, and then we have this section, which shows God has Elisha’s back, and that mocking God’s prophet is the same as mocking God. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473.md?page=2)