# Bible verses: 2 Kings 2:23-24; Numbers 5:11-31 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473 "2013-07-25T12:51:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/21 "2013-07-25T14:00:01Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I have read that referring to them as “children” is a mistranslation, but I share your puzzlement as to why, in that case, even modern translations can’t agree on the correct wording. I do think it makes a difference whether Elisha was accosted by a mob (at least 42) of young hoodlums or of kindergartners. > > I have also heard that, in that context, “Go up, thou bald head” was a major insult, or even a threat; [here’s one online cite](http://carm.org/why-did-god-kill-42-lads-merely-saying-elisha-was-bald) I could find. As regards the children thing, the [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisha#cite_note-14)on Elisha talks about the hebrew _na’arim_, suggesting unequivocally that it probably refers to youngsters, possibly as old as into their 30s or 40s. [QUOTE=wiki article on Elisha, footnote 14 commenting on “Youths”] Hebrew na’ar, translated “youths” in the New International Version. Jewish Encyclopedia on Elisha states, “The offenders were not children, but were called so (“ne’arim”) because they lacked (“meno’arin”) all religion (Soṭah 46b).” Although the Authorized King James Version used the words “little children”, John Gill stated in his Exposition of the Bible that the word was “used of persons of thirty or forty years of age” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/22 "2013-07-25T14:05:03Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Do you think the event really happened? Whether or not it happened is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/23 "2013-07-25T14:10:25Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Whether or not it happened is irrelevant. OK, but do you think it really happened? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/24 "2013-07-25T14:11:46Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The view of God as a personal God is basically New Testament. In the OT, he’s much more the God of the nation of Israel. Look at the whole chapter: Elijah is taken by a whirlwind up to heaven, giving Elisha his mantle. The rest of chapter is given over to establishing Elisha’s credibility as Elijah’s successor: a search for Elijah proves unfruitful, Elisha purifies a spring, giving the city fresh water, and then we have this section, which shows God has Elisha’s back, and that mocking God’s prophet is the same as mocking God. Do you think it really happened? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/25 "2013-07-25T14:13:44Z")
> [@Lanzy](#): > > Sorry, to me, this has always sounded like a made up horror story to keep kids in line. Huh. I’ve always just thought that all the miracles were just to show how badass Elisha was. Maybe that’s because that’s the reason the Gospels list Jesus’s miracles, and so I’m biased. But it seems to me that Elisha and Elijah are almost mythical figures in Judaism. Moses, too. Though, oddly, not Abraham–he never does anything miraculous. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/26 "2013-07-25T14:14:05Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > So I wonder if any of the liberal Christains around here might be able to point out any deeper metaphorical religious truths from the passage. Is this a Bible study open for everyone to participate in, or another interrogation/attack on those you consider to be “Liberal Christians”? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/27 "2013-07-25T14:15:25Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Do you think it really happened? It’s certainly possible. Tell me, what’s implausible about the noise and actions of a group of teenagers (or kids) attracting the attention of a wild animal? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/28 "2013-07-25T14:16:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is this a Bible study open for everyone to participate in, or another interrogation/attack on those you consider to be “Liberal Christians”? Everyone of course. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/29 "2013-07-25T14:18:40Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > OK, but do you think it really happened? Is what you are doing in this thread what you consider to be “Bible study”-Repeating “Do you think it really happened?” over and over again? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/30 "2013-07-25T14:22:42Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > It’s certainly possible. Tell me, what’s implausible about the noise and actions of a group of teenagers (or kids) attracting the attention of a wild animal? I watch the animal channel. From that I gather that bears usually attack smaller groups of people (1-2) and usually only when startled or protecting a cub or something, and never have I heard of them attacking in pairs. And catching 42 children? I’d expect the kids to scatter. So I think that makes it pretty implausible. Do you think the bears really attacked because Elisha cursed the children? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/31 "2013-07-25T14:24:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is what you are doing in this thread what you consider to be “Bible study”-Repeating “Do you think it really happened?” over and over again? Sure. Don’t you think we should explore if the story is historical vs allegorical? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/32 "2013-07-25T14:26:19Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Do you think it really happened? I have no idea nor do I care. “Did it really happen?” is not the point of Bible study. “What does it mean?” or “What can we learn from it?” or “What was the author trying to say?” are examples of study questions. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/33 "2013-07-25T14:28:51Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Sure. Don’t you think we should explore if the story is historical vs allegorical? That is definitely not what you have done in this thread so far, but let’s explore that route-Which do you think it is, and why? If it is allegorical, what message do you think the story is trying to make? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/34 "2013-07-25T14:29:18Z")
Won’t someone please think of the bears?! The poor, dyspeptic bears?! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/35 "2013-07-25T14:30:33Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I have no idea nor do I care. OK, you could have just said that. > [@](#): > > “Did it really happen?” is not the point of Bible study. “What does it mean?” or “What can we learn from it?” or “What was the author trying to say?” are examples of study questions. No, “did it really happen” is pretty important too. Unless we all agree we are just talking fiction here, then you might have a point. ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/36 "2013-07-25T14:30:20Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I think it’s pretty deep and significant that the mob consisted of exactly 42 people. It says that the she-bears killed 42 of them, so there were probably more. Also, how did they know they were she-bears and not he-bears? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/37 "2013-07-25T14:36:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That is definitely not what you have done in this thread so far, but let’s explore that route-Which do you think it is, and why? I think it’s a made up story that never happened. > [@](#): > > If it is allegorical, what message do you think the story is trying to make? I think it goes back to what I think is the general theme of the Bible. Love God (and/or his favored) or suffer His wrath. How about you? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/38 "2013-07-25T14:37:09Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > No, “did it really happen” is pretty important too. Unless we all agree we are just talking fiction here, then you might have a point. Several people have shared what they think the point of the story is, and there was an interesting side conversation on the translation of “young boys.” Why do you think “did it really” happen is important? How should our interpretation of the story be different if it “really happened” versus it being a myth that developed as part of the Elisha story? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/39 "2013-07-25T14:41:23Z")
With the caveat that many ancient peoples didn’t really mark the same distinction between fiction and non-fiction that we do (I mean, they had distinctions near and around it, but not really the same distinction, since they thought nothing at all of mixing known apocryphal tales with known factual tales into a single work without distinction), I’m willing to affirm that, by _my own_ contemporary categories, every narrative word of the bible is fiction. Probably the closest analogue to my own categories would be: Historical fiction. Archaeologists 50,000 years from now, after the great nuclear apocalypse, may watch the Tudors and try to puzzle over what in it is factual and what in it is there just to tell a good story. We’re in a similar situation w.r.t. the biblical narratives. And some of those archaeologists (but not all the good ones) will focus more on the meaning of the series for its audience, rather than for what it tells anyone about real history. That’s analogous to one liberal Christian approach to the biblical narratives. (Together with a conviction that there is something vitally important and good to be found in those narratives. The future archaeologists are unlikely to have that impression about the Tudors of course…) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/40 "2013-07-25T14:44:29Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I think it goes back to what I think is the general theme of the Bible. Love God (and/or his favored) or suffer His wrath. How about you? I think that if this is as deep as your “Bible study” is going to get-“God Is Bad!”-then I’ll just leave you to it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473.md?page=3)