# Bible verses: 2 Kings 2:23-24; Numbers 5:11-31 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473 "2013-07-25T12:51:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/41 "2013-07-25T14:45:08Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > It’s certainly possible. Tell me, what’s implausible about the noise and actions of a group of teenagers (or kids) attracting the attention of a wild animal? Two bears attacking a group of more then 42 humans? Unless the bears of antiquity were a lot more ill-tempered then then their modern conterparts, that’s pretty clearly ahistorical. Plus even if its not explicit, the author clearly meant his readership to understand the bear attack was due to Elisha’s religiously derived powers. Anyways, I agree with the other posters. There’s no deep meaning here, the story is just meant to demonstrate that people should respect elders, religious figures, and that Elisha is a bad-ass with magical powers. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/42 "2013-07-25T14:47:59Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Several people have shared what they think the point of the story is, and there was an interesting side conversation on the translation of “young boys.” Yes, all that’s great, that’s why I started the thread. > [@](#): > > Why do you think “did it really” happen is important? It says something about the god in question if he really killed the children. It says something about the writers of the Bible if they just made up a bunch of stories. > [@](#): > > How should our interpretation of the story be different if it “really happened” versus it being a myth that developed as part of the Elisha story? If it really happened, then we should maybe really repent, but out of fear rather than love. If it didn’t really happen, then the god in question is probably as fictional as the event. At least that’s how I see it. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/43 "2013-07-25T14:49:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think that if this is as deep as your “Bible study” is going to get-“God Is Bad!”-then I’ll just leave you to it. I have to get ready for work now, but I invite you to take the discussion to a deeper level in my absence. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/44 "2013-07-25T14:53:56Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > If it didn’t really happen, then the god in question is probably as fictional as the event. At least that’s how I see it. But isn’t that manifestly terrible reasoning? Did you type this in a rush as you had to go to work? Lots of stuff in _The Tudors_ is untrue. Henry VIII is depicted doing many fictional things. Does this mean Henry VIII is as fictional as those events? ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/45 "2013-07-25T15:02:13Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Two bears attacking a group of more then 42 humans? Unless the bears of antiquity were a lot more ill-tempered then then their modern conterparts, that’s pretty clearly ahistorical. Plus even if its not explicit, the author clearly meant his readership to understand the bear attack was due to Elisha’s religiously derived powers. > > Anyways, I agree with the other posters. There’s no deep meaning here, the story is just meant to demonstrate that people should respect elders, religious figures, and that Elisha is a bad-ass with magical powers. I would also make the argument that the targets of Elisha’s curse (executed through bear agency) are not just the 42, but the town of Bethel as a whole. Not uniquely amongst humankind, but perhaps even more so than we do in modernity, old testament folk attached great importance to their children and there are several instances in the bible where lessons are taught by making someone’s children, especially first born sons, suffer. As an aside, the cultural meaning of God’s sacrifice in giving us his only son is perhaps larger for contemporaries of Jesus than it is for us. In this light, it does not really matter whether the slaughtered where children in the sense of being of a certain age; what’s the point is that they’re _someone’s_ children. I think Elisha’s by-proxy murder of the children of Bethel is not just the old testament variant of ‘get off my lawn, you crazy hoodlum kids’, but is him smacking down the whole town of Bethel by hitting what is most important to any town, its future as represented by its children. ---
**Author:** ![MrLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f8ce5/32.png) [@MrLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrLee)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/46 "2013-07-25T15:28:44Z")
Could it be that the point of this little story isn’t really about the _youths’ punishment_ at all; rather, it was to demonstrate how absolutely bad-ass Elisha was as a result of his direct-line to God? In other words, this wasn’t about saying [to the reader] ‘Be nice or else you’ll be mauled by bears’, it was about illustrating how God’s omnipotence could be channeled by hardcore believers in a (seemingly) nonchalant manner for almost arbitrary personal reasons? _I_ would like to be able to summon bears to maul people on whim…Who wouldn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/47 "2013-07-25T15:33:56Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I watch the animal channel. From that I gather that bears usually attack smaller groups of people (1-2) and usually only when startled or protecting a cub or something, and never have I heard of them attacking in pairs. And catching 42 children? I’d expect the kids to scatter. So I think that makes it pretty implausible. > > Do you think the bears really attacked because Elisha cursed the children? The exaggeration of numbers in the Bible has been mentioned more times than I can count. I think Elijah was a powerful, impressive preacher, and so was his bald successor, Elisha. The other details are the accrual of legend, not allegory or history. It’s more interesting to me that it shows that the Hebrew culture of the time thought how important reverence towards a holy figure was. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/48 "2013-07-25T15:50:56Z")
> [@MrLee](#): > > Could it be that the point of this little story isn’t really about the _youths’ punishment_ at all; rather, it was to demonstrate how absolutely bad-ass Elisha was as a result of his direct-line to God? > > In other words, this wasn’t about saying [to the reader] ‘Be nice or else you’ll be mauled by bears’, it was about illustrating how God’s omnipotence could be channeled by hardcore believers in a (seemingly) nonchalant manner for almost arbitrary personal reasons? > > _I_ would like to be able to summon bears to maul people on whim…Who wouldn’t? I was going to mention this. This story takes place shortly after Elisha has (literally) assumed the mantle of Elijah, and this story is a way of demonstrating his legitimacy. Also, regarding ‘42’ - it’s a number commonly used in the Bible. According to Luke 24:5, the drought under Elijah lasted 42 months also. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/49 "2013-07-25T16:13:48Z")
This is actually one of the most commonly misunderstood Bible stories. Everyone reads it as the children being punished, but really the whole point was to reward two virtuous bears. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/50 "2013-07-25T16:18:47Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > “Young men” was used all of once, out of 18 translations, and again I ask, does that make the story better? Also, “youths”, and “young lads”. I think it changes the story, as others have said. Are these children, innocents? Or are they young adults who should have know better? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/51 "2013-07-25T16:29:02Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Are these children, innocents? Or are they young adults who should have know better? From [here](http://ronyan.org/aaronk1994/aaronsblog/20100717is-2-kings-223-24-immoral/). I don’t know Hebrew so I cannot vouch for accuracy: > [@](#): > > According to the KJV, these youths were mere children who should have been given a lot of leeway. > > However, if one looks closely, this was a poor translation on the KJV’s part. The Hebrew used for the youths, _neurim qetannim_ is best rendered ‘young lads’ or “young men.” This term is used in several Old Testament passages. > > One of these usages describes Isaac at his sacrifice in Genesis 22:12, when he was easily in his early twenties. It described Joseph in Genesis 37:2 when he was seventeen years old. Other usages include 1 Samuel 20:35, 1 Kings 3:7, and 1 Kings 11:17. In fact, it’s even used to describe soldiers’ in 1 Kings 20:14-15. > > It’s clear from these passages that the youths mentioned in 2 Kings 2:23-24 were not small children that were irresponsible and immature and shouldn’t have been harshly punished; this passage describes youths that could have been 30 years old. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/52 "2013-07-25T18:31:25Z")
Not sure the rising of the age (that IMHO is doubtful, the behavior in context does point to kids being disrespectful) makes things better, it is still a gross miscarriage of justice as the punishment does not fit the crime. But, just suppose that that was the case and we are dealing with young guys. It becomes worse now because then, as I do remember how young people married and how young people had kids those days, now we have many widows and fatherless kids (That were even more innocent). Nope, it is not better IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/53 "2013-07-25T20:09:26Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Is that your ‘gotcha’? The “religious truth” here is not metaphorical - the lesson is that God is not pleased by young people disrespecting their elders, especially prophets of God. > > To modern sensibilities the punishment is disproportionately brutal for what sounds like a mild insult, but the incident has to be placed in context - this was ancient Israel thousands of years ago. It’s hardly the only incident in the Old Testament that describes violence that we would find appalling today (e.g. the ethnic cleansing undertaken by Joshua.) As another thread says elsewhere, **Why do [people] want to punish so disproportionately to the crime?** If we as mere humans can recognize the injustice in it, surely a God could too. No? It doesn’t matter if it was children or young men. I recognize it only as a tale, but I also I don’t see any good and decent moral to be had out of this story either. There are better parenting guides to be found. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/54 "2013-07-25T20:47:48Z")
If it’s a gang of chavs hassling, bullying, threatening an old man who they know is old, frail, and holy… then the punishment is poetic, but not disproportionate for the times. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/55 "2013-07-25T20:49:42Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I don’t think it’s right to stone rebellious teenagers either. Oh, I don’t know. When I was in high school, rebellious teenagers got stoned all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/56 "2013-07-25T21:16:47Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > As another thread says elsewhere, **Why do [people] want to punish so disproportionately to the crime?** If we as mere humans can recognize the injustice in it, surely a God could too. No? It doesn’t matter if it was children or young men. > > I recognize it only as a tale, but I also I don’t see any good and decent moral to be had out of this story either. There are better parenting guides to be found. I think everyone here agrees that the punishment is disproportionate in our context. I don’t recommend throwing disobedient neighborhood kids to the bears and telling people God told you to. (Although I’ve read some conservative commentaries try to argue that the mauling was justified; I disagree). But to the original author and audience, the punishment was not disproportionate - remember Mosaic law called for disobedient children to be taken out and stoned to death. So the point of the story is not the harshness of the punishment, but more likely to demonstrate Elisha’s legitimacy and/or reinforce the correct behavior in young people toward their elders and the prophets. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/57 "2013-07-25T21:23:29Z")
Of course, that then leads one to conclude that since times have changed we should not look at the OT for guidance. I think it is for things like that what causes even some people of faith to report that the bible is a dead book. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/58 "2013-07-25T22:14:32Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Of course, that then leads one to conclude that since times have changed we should not look at the OT for guidance. Nothing of the sort. It does mean, however, that we should not consider the OT in a cultural vacuum, or try to shoehorn the text into our own modern context. Times have changed; but people have not changed. And one of the reasons we study the OP is to understand the evolution of Israel’s understanding of and relationship with God. > [@](#): > > I think it is for things like that what causes even some people of faith to report that the bible is a dead book. I respect their right to have that opinion, although I cannot fathom it. I cannot imagine a text that is more engaging on the whole. This particular story seems a little trivial to get hung up on; but after all the OPs purpose was not genuine inquiry but to bait ‘liberal Christians.’ ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/59 "2013-07-25T23:24:33Z")
It is probably relevant that the youths were coming from Bethel, which was one of two state-sponsored centers of rival religions (Dan being the other), complete with a golden calf set up by Jeroboam after the kingdoms divided. Bethel had been the center of a confrontation beforehand —in 1 Kings 13, an unnamed young prophet cursed the altar of Bethel and its priests, with a sign performed when Jeroboam’s arm withered when he ordered the prophet arrested. One website I looked at indicated it was significant because Ashtoreth was worshipped there, and she was occasionally referred to as a bear-goddess, and the young men would have been followers of her. This is carrying imagination beyond the scope of verifiability: everything I find has Ashtoreth being a dove-goddess, or, more often, a bull-headed goddess, no connect with bears. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/60 "2013-07-26T00:27:10Z")
It comes right after this: > [@](#): > > The people of the city said to Elisha, “Look, our lord, this town is well situated, as you can see, but the water is bad and the land is unproductive.” > > “Bring me a new bowl,” he said, “and put salt in it.” So they brought it to him. > > Then he went out to the spring and threw the salt into it, saying, “This is what the Lord says: ‘I have healed this water. Never again will it cause death or make the land unproductive.’” And the water has remained pure to this day, according to the word Elisha had spoken. It seems to me, if you look at the entire chapter, the sequence of events is: 1. Elijah and Elisha go to Bethel. Elisha is told by the prophets of Bethel that God is going to take Elijah. Elijah tells Elisha that he’s going to Jericho and to stay in Bethel 2. Elijah, with Elisha following him, goes to Jericho. Elisha is told by the prophets of Jericho that God is going to take Elijah. Elijah tells Elisha that he’s going to the Jordan and to stay in Jericho. 3. Elijah, followed by Elisha and the prophets of Jericho, go to the Jordan. Elijah, using his cloak, parts the Jordan and he and Elisha cross it. Elisha asks to be given Elijah’s power. Elijah says he can only have his power if he can see Elijah being taken up to heaven by God. 4. God takes Elijah up to heaven, with Elisha seeing. Elisha tears his clothing in two, and then picks up Elijah’s cloak. 5. Elisha uses Elisha’s cloak to part the Jordan and then joins the prophets of Jericho. 6. The prophets of Jericho, not knowing that Elijah was taken up to heaven, search for him over Elisha’s objections. They don’t find him, and Elisha says “I told you so”. 7. Elijah blesses a spring of bad water in Jericho and it turns sweet. 8. Elijah goes to Bethel, where he calls on bears to maul some boys who were mocking him. He then goes back to Mt. Carmel and Samaria. So, it seems to me, looking at the whole thing, the passage is stressing that Elisha has gotten the same power Elijah had. Elijah parts the river with his cloak, Elisha parts the river with his cloak. And Elisha gets the same power that Elijah had; to bless, like he did in Jericho, and to curse, like he did in Bethel. So it seems to me the fact that the boys cursed him for being bald, and that it was bears, and all that aren’t that important. The actual curse isn’t important…just the ability to curse. I think there’s probably some significance with the chapters before and after too, dealing with Mesha’s revolt. In the one before, Elijah curses the king of Israel and he dies. In the one after, Elisha blesses the Kings of Judah and Israel and causes another miracle with water, which lets the armies of Israel and Judah defeat Moab until the King of Moab sacrifices his own son to the Moabite god and stops the invasion. It’s interesting looking at Chapters 2 and 3, because I see some parallelism there. In both cases, you have a miracle involving water. In chapter 2’s case, there’s a curse that kills children. In chapter 3’s case, there’s the sacrifice of a child that brings about divine intervention from Chemosh. I don’t know if it’s significant, but it’s interesting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473.md?page=4)