# Bible verses: 2 Kings 2:23-24; Numbers 5:11-31 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473 "2013-07-25T12:51:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/81 "2013-07-26T18:26:01Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > All that being said; as a believer I have a personal response to the text that is equally out of place in this type of thread. I do not see why personal responses would be out of place in this type of thread. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/82 "2013-07-26T20:23:04Z")
OK, I believe that it happened, that God was behind it, and that it was fair & just. A lot of my reasons have already been stated- that it was not “little children” but “young men”, that they knew this was God’s prophet & Elijah’s successor to whom they were showing contempt, and that the area was known for idolatry and the youths were probably devotees, perhaps even servants at the altars. I’ll add that their call for him to “Go up!” doesn’t just mean “Get out of here!” but “Go up to Heaven like your mentor Elijah did!” and suggest that perhaps Elijah’s presence would have protected them from the bears which were in the area until they drove him out. [http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/biblical-horizons/no-67-suffer-the-little-children/](http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/biblical-horizons/no-67-suffer-the-little-children/) The only thing I have problems with- you’d think that when the bears attacked the nearest ones, the rest would run off, unless they were totally foolhardy. Same difficulty with the Philistine horde that Samson killed with an ass’s jawbone or the Egyptian army that just saw the Red Sea split for the Israelites & then thought it was a good idea to CHASE AFTER THEM!?!? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/83 "2013-07-26T20:30:55Z")
Hosea 13, in which God describes His Judging Presence to Apostate Israel. Note verse 8. 4 But I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior. 5 It was I who knew you in the wilderness, in the land of drought; 6 but when they had grazed,[a] they became full, they were filled, and their heart was lifted up; therefore they forgot me. 7 So I am to them like a lion; like a leopard I will lurk beside the way. 8 I will fall upon them like a bear robbed of her cubs; I will tear open their breast, and there I will devour them like a lion, as a wild beast would rip them open. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/84 "2013-07-26T21:41:44Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Hosea 13, in which God describes His Judging Presence to Apostate Israel. Note verse 8. > > \ > > 8 I will fall upon them like a bear robbed of her cubs; > I will tear open their breast, > and there I will devour them like a lion, > as a wild beast would rip them open. Interesting, and Hosea is from ca. 800 BCE. Maybe that’s what the _Kings_ Deuteronomist writer (ca. 560 BCE) was intending to fulfill when he wrote his verses. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/85 "2013-07-26T23:19:24Z")
And Leviticus 26:22-23: 22 I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. 23 "And if you fail to learn a lesson from this and continue your hostility toward me, 24 then I myself will be hostile toward you, and I will personally strike you seven times over for your sins. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/86 "2013-07-26T23:39:13Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Yes, we agree to this point. > > Here, you’ve moved beyond the meaning of the text to making a value judgment. “It’s not a very good lesson” is not a scholarly statement; it’s a personal opinion. We could find people (probably not in this thread) who think it is a good lesson. “Nobody should think such a god … worthy of respect” is the same kind of thing. > > All that being said; as a believer I have a personal response to the text that is equally out of place in this type of thread. As have you, and often. My post # 73 was basically paraphrasing most of your value judgments you’ve used since this thread was opened. I find the collective opinion of seventy scholars such in “The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible” concluding that the particular pericope is a legend, and stating how awful are the consequences that profane what is holy, be it God or a prophet isn’t much different than how those with personal opinions interpreted it, but again, with religious folks still finding a bit more reverence to them, and non-religious folk not having any of that. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/87 "2013-07-27T02:32:43Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > But isn’t that manifestly terrible reasoning? Did you type this in a rush as you had to go to work? No and yes. If a god can’t demonstrate any supernatural powers it’s probably a safe bet to assume there is some kind of fraud going on. I imagine you apply that reasoning to every god but your own, so it can’t be too terrible. > [@](#): > > Lots of stuff in _The Tudors_ is untrue. Henry VIII is depicted doing many fictional things. Does this mean Henry VIII is as fictional as those events? A better comparison would be something including some other mythology. Perhaps Greek. Like if you read the Iliad, would you conclude that Poseidon existed? My guess is no, cause probably your parents didn’t raise you to believe in Poseidon. For Henry the 8th there are other reasons to believe in him besides “The Tudors” but I can’t say I’ve seen the show. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/88 "2013-07-27T02:36:54Z")
> [@MrLee](#): > > Could it be that the point of this little story isn’t really about the _youths’ punishment_ at all; rather, it was to demonstrate how absolutely bad-ass Elisha was as a result of his direct-line to God? I’d want to know if the story was true that Elisha was a bad ass, or was it a lie. My guess is, it was a lie. So the author was probably trying to present a false reality. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/89 "2013-07-27T02:41:26Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The exaggeration of numbers in the Bible has been mentioned more times than I can count. Exaggerating numbers is dishonest. So you think Elisha killed fewer children? That still seems wrong to me. > [@](#): > > I think Elijah was a powerful, impressive preacher, and so was his bald successor, Elisha. The other details are the accrual of legend, not allegory or history. It’s more interesting to me that it shows that the Hebrew culture of the time thought how important reverence towards a holy figure was. It also shows how they were cool with the idea of killing “young lads” for teasing a bald man. It shows how you seem pretty cool with the idea too. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/90 "2013-07-27T02:44:50Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Also, “youths”, and “young lads”. > > I think it changes the story, as others have said. > Are these children, innocents? Or are they young adults who should have know better? If a lad is a young man or boy, what’s a young lad? Even so, I think it’s wrong to kill grown ups for teasing a man. Does that make me a bad person? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/91 "2013-07-27T02:49:49Z")
> [@skammer](#): > > from [here](http://ronyan.org/aaronk1994/aaronsblog/20100717is-2-kings-223-24-immoral/). I don’t know hebrew so i cannot vouch for accuracy: > [@](#): > > according to the kjv, these youths were mere children who should have been given a lot of leeway. > > However, if one looks closely, this was a poor translation on the kjv’s part. The hebrew used for the youths, neurim qetannim is best rendered ‘young lads’ or “young men.” this term is used in several old testament passages. > > One of these usages describes isaac at his sacrifice in genesis 22:12, when he was easily in his early twenties. It described joseph in genesis 37:2 when he was seventeen years old. Other usages include 1 samuel 20:35, 1 kings 3:7, and 1 kings 11:17. In fact, it’s even used to describe soldiers’ in 1 kings 20:14-15. > > It’s clear from these passages that the youths mentioned in 2 kings 2:23-24 were not small children that were irresponsible and immature and shouldn’t have been harshly punished; this passage describes youths that could have been 30 years old. When I google “neurim qetannim” I don’t get anything but Christian apologists sites speaking only of this specific episode. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/92 "2013-07-27T02:52:51Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > If it’s a gang of chavs hassling, bullying, threatening an old man who they know is old, frail, and holy… then the punishment is poetic, but not disproportionate for the times. I remember when Christians used to talk about their morals being “absolute” and considered it a weakness that secularist morals were “relative.” When did relative morality become so popular among Christians? Is the Almighty, and his text book, no longer considered a good source of how to behave now and forever? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/93 "2013-07-27T02:58:42Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > It is probably relevant that the youths were coming from Bethel, which was one of two state-sponsored centers of rival religions (Dan being the other), complete with a golden calf set up by Jeroboam after the kingdoms divided. Bethel had been the center of a confrontation beforehand —in 1 Kings 13, an unnamed young prophet cursed the altar of Bethel and its priests, with a sign performed when Jeroboam’s arm withered when he ordered the prophet arrested. Professor, I thought you were one of those liberal Christians who thought many religions were paths to the same god. But now you seem to be endorsing the idea of killing idolators. What gives? Do you really think its OK to kill people of different religions, if not now, in the past? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/94 "2013-07-27T03:00:06Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It seems to me, if you look at the entire chapter, the sequence of events is: > > 1. Elijah and Elisha go to Bethel. Elisha is told by the prophets of Bethel that God is going to take Elijah. Elijah tells Elisha that he’s going to Jericho and to stay in Bethel > > 2. Elijah, with Elisha following him, goes to Jericho. Elisha is told by the prophets of Jericho that God is going to take Elijah. Elijah tells Elisha that he’s going to the Jordan and to stay in Jericho. > > 3. Elijah, followed by Elisha and the prophets of Jericho, go to the Jordan. Elijah, using his cloak, parts the Jordan and he and Elisha cross it. Elisha asks to be given Elijah’s power. Elijah says he can only have his power if he can see Elijah being taken up to heaven by God. > > 4. God takes Elijah up to heaven, with Elisha seeing. Elisha tears his clothing in two, and then picks up Elijah’s cloak. > > 5. Elisha uses Elisha’s cloak to part the Jordan and then joins the prophets of Jericho. > > 6. The prophets of Jericho, not knowing that Elijah was taken up to heaven, search for him over Elisha’s objections. They don’t find him, and Elisha says “I told you so”. > > 7. Elijah blesses a spring of bad water in Jericho and it turns sweet. > > 8. Elijah goes to Bethel, where he calls on bears to maul some boys who were mocking him. He then goes back to Mt. Carmel and Samaria. **Captain Amazing** , which parts if any of all that do you think really happened? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/95 "2013-07-27T03:01:12Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I think the story reflects the twisted mind of the ancient writer, nothing more. That seems to be the most rational conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/96 "2013-07-27T03:05:26Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I think the OP is just trying to show that the Bible and God are suspect because of stories like this. Yes. > [@](#): > > It’s kind of a lame and amateurish effort at a zinger since anyone who engages in Bible study has typically long since made accommodation one way or the other for these sorts of stories. But isn’t it interesting to see to what lengths modern day people will go to in order to make such accommodations? > [@](#): > > But Kable, if you are just looking for zingers about the brutality of the God of the OT (or his followers), read Joshua. > > The conquering Jews were commanded by God to slaughter wholesale. Man, woman, child, beast. According to the book of Joshua, they did so in obedience to God. > > Makes Muslims and Crusaders look like pikers. That’s all good, but I think I have a better idea for next weeks Bible study. > [@](#): > > But it’s not “Bible study” to present the Elisha story just to get your zinger in. It’s amateur “gotcha” hour. Why do you say that? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/97 "2013-07-27T03:07:52Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > OK, I believe that it happened, that God was behind it, and that it was fair & just. Wow! > [@](#): > > A lot of my reasons have already been stated- that it was not “little children” but “young men” How do you know they were young men? The best attempts at defining the Hebrew word were ambiguous as best regarding the age? So how can you be sure they were older? ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/98 "2013-07-27T03:33:32Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I don’t think the punishment fits the crime. How about you? > > I don’t think it’s right to stone rebellious teenagers either. You’ve been listening to that false prophet Jesus, haven’t you! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/99 "2013-07-27T03:59:11Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > **Captain Amazing** , which parts if any of all that do you think really happened? My personal opinion? Probably none of it. I mean, I guess it’s possible there was a historical Yahwist Israelite prophet named Elijah who had a follower/assistant named Elisha who took his place when Elijah died or disappeared. As far as I know, there’s no verifiable contemporary historical evidence for them (We haven’t found Ahab’s diary with the entry, “Planted roses in my new garden, or as Elijah calls it, my ‘death garden’. Man’s a real buzzkill and I’m starting to feel bad.” or anything like that), but at the same time, I’m willing to accept the possibility of their existence. I don’t see that that should matter, though, should it? Do I have to believe the events really happened to talk about them? I mean, I don’t think that Huck Finn really helped Jim escape to freedom in Illinois, either, but I talk about that book. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/100 "2013-07-27T04:14:26Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > My personal opinion? Probably none of it. I mean, I guess it’s possible there was a historical Yahwist Israelite prophet named Elijah who had a follower/assistant named Elisha who took his place when Elijah died or disappeared. As far as I know, there’s no verifiable contemporary historical evidence for them (We haven’t found Ahab’s diary with the entry, “Planted roses in my new garden, or as Elijah calls it, my ‘death garden’. Man’s a real buzzkill and I’m starting to feel bad.” or anything like that), but at the same time, I’m willing to accept the possibility of their existence. > > I don’t see that that should matter, though, should it? Do I have to believe the events really happened to talk about them? I mean, I don’t think that Huck Finn really helped Jim escape to freedom in Illinois, either, but I talk about that book. As long as you do not tell others that Huck pretending to have smallpox is something that would fly nowadays\*, or avoid telling others to ignore the palpable injustice shown in the book, we are ok. 🙂 - One interesting bit about smallpox, funny how the pestilences ordered by God do not have smallpox in his toolbox nowadays. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473.md?page=6)