# Bible verses: 2 Kings 2:23-24; Numbers 5:11-31 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473 "2013-07-25T12:51:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/141 "2013-07-29T12:08:25Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > That’s incorrect. People who have flat-lined EEG’s have recovered. It’s rare. Severe hypothermia has been a cause. There are also some surgical procedures that deliberately create a flat-line for the patient. The doctor told me that the EEG’s can only register to a certain point, that is why they do a survival procedure on them. They can still have some life in them. That is why they don’t say a person is dead until they try all things on them, The early stages of the brain can still have life. If I remember correctly it is near the brain stem. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/142 "2013-07-29T12:11:17Z")
> [@Stuka](#): > > 4 But I am the Lord your God > from the land of Egypt; > you know no God but me, > and besides me there is no savior. > 5 It was I who knew you in the wilderness, > in the land of drought; > 6 but when they had grazed,[a] they became full, > they were filled, and their heart was lifted up; > therefore they forgot me. > 7 So I am to them like a lion; > like a leopard I will lurk beside the way. > 8 I will fall upon them like a bear robbed of her cubs; > I will tear open their breast, > and there I will devour them like a lion, > as a wild beast would rip them open. > > When I read this I didn’t see it as meaning that God would actually tear anyone limb from limb, but rather that God would return into the people’s hearts with the ferocity of a mother bear protecting her cubs. > > If I’m correct in this, the story of the two bears tearing apart 42 children isn’t a story about a bear attack. > > I believe in the Jewish faith it is recommended that people study Kabbalah after the age of forty. I’ve always presumed that this is because at that age people might be thought to have enough life experience to understand what Kabbalah teaches. > > From this, I’m wondering if the “little children” really refers to people who lacked the ability to understand God, rather than to actual children. Someone posted that the children came from Bethel, a place where the golden calf was worshipped. The opposition, in fact. > > I’m also wondering if the baldness refers to “holiness” rather than a lack of head hair. I know in some cultures monks tend to shave their heads. > > In other words, I’m wondering if the bear story really means that Elisha, an old (ready for God’s word) and bald (holy) man was accosted by a group of Bethel “children” (people who were not only not ready for God’s word, but also worshipped the golden calf). These people sneered at him that he should “Go up” as he claimed Elijah had done. In response, God entered the hearts of 42 of these people with the ferocity of two female bears. > > If I’m right, it’s rather a coup for God to get 42 converts from the opposition. This is only another humans’ writing and /word for it. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/143 "2013-07-29T13:24:13Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > if the event really happened then the author would not be a liar and Elisha might actually have had legitimacy as a prophet of a real god. Was the author of _The Illiad_ (Homer) a liar? The author of _Gilgamesh_ or _Beowulf_? These are stories passed down through generations before being written down, with the purpose of teaching something about God (or the gods). You might as well accuse Aesop of lying. [QUOTE=Kable] The authors of 2 Kings were trying to deceive their audience into thinking Elisha had legitimacy and supernatural powers, when in fact he did not. That’s how I understand it too. [/QUOTE] In the context of the myth, he did (apparently) have supernatural powers, unless the bear attack was a co-incidence, which doesn’t appear to be the intent. You cannot say “in fact he did not” when that clearly contradicts the text we are studying, just like you cannot say “Paris didn’t really kidnap Helen of Troy.” _Whether this is a historical event is not relevant._ The purpose of Bible Study is not to point and laugh at the beliefs of ancient people nor to use those to score points with those who are trying to put the story into cultural, historical and religious context. Or to claim those who do so are “justifying” mass slaughter. However, every post you’ve made in this thread starting with the OP has been disingenuous, and you’ve only repeated your ignorant objections over and over without considering other perspectives, so I don’t expect you to have a meaningful response to this post either. I’m bowing out of this thread - go ahead and have your fun pretending you’ve proven some kind of point while the rest of us roll our eyes at you. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/144 "2013-07-30T12:16:44Z")
> [@the Lord](#): > > Numbers 5:11-31 > New International Version (NIV) > The Test for an Unfaithful Wife > > 11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing. > > 16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse\*\* among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.” > > “‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.” > > 23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children. > > 29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’” Is there any good way to spin the above? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/145 "2013-07-30T12:37:51Z")
Seems downright liberal compared to what happens to women suspected of adultery in some parts of the middle east today. Much better than “if a husband is jealous or suspects his wife, but there is no proof, stone her anyway just to be sure”. Anyway, any of the OT tests/laws are easily countered by Jesus statement that he is a new covenant that replaces the old. This test no longer applies to Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/146 "2013-07-30T12:55:38Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Is there any good way to spin the above? What are you looking for here? What is your specific problem or question about this passage? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/147 "2013-07-30T12:59:53Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > What are you looking for here? What is your specific problem or question about this passage? Did God really tell Moses that the curse would work? Does it work now? Did it ever work? Why didn’t God give Moses a test for an unfaithful husband? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/148 "2013-07-30T13:04:18Z")
A non-scientific culture has a ritual that keeps a family unit from falling apart, without harming the woman. Wikipedia notes that trials by ordeal were common throughout the Near East in antiquity: [Ordeal by Bitter Water](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordeal_of_the_bitter_water). “Nahmanides points out that of all the 613 commandments, it is only the sotah law that requires God’s specific co-operation to make it work. The bitter waters can only be effective miraculously.” ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/149 "2013-07-30T13:17:19Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Seems downright liberal compared to what happens to women suspected of adultery in some parts of the middle east today. Probably so :). However, this sentence reminds me that I think one of the mistakes we make is treating laws handed down 3500 years ago and applying today’s morality. Laws that seem harsh were very forward and modern in that era. For example, “an eye for an eye” was intended to stop the circle of violence - just take an eye for an eye and don’t Hatfield & McCoy it for ages (which was what invariably would happen). ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/150 "2013-07-30T13:28:55Z")
And will next week’s Bible study, like last week’s and this, also consist of a verse or passage about which the OP wishes the readership to conclude “This is utter bullshit”, and by extension, conclude the same to be true about the entire document and Christianity itself? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/151 "2013-07-30T13:34:08Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Why didn’t God give Moses a test for an unfaithful husband? Srsly? Because male infidelity is not a threat to heteropatriarchy. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/152 "2013-07-30T13:35:55Z")
I am the furthest thing from a Biblical scholar, but I actually like this one. It’s buying time. It lets the women know she’s under suspicion, and should be more discreet (if that’s her choice) without actually harming her. Now, if she has gotten herself pregnant, indeed, her “abdomen will swell” in time, and perhaps this “bitter water” is an abortifacient of some sort which will cause her to miscarry (most abortifacient herbs are indeed bitter). And assuming her husband’s suspicions revolve around his not having had sex with her, miscarrying a fetus is indeed a good sign that she’s been adulterous. Problem is, I don’t know of any herbal abortifacients that won’t harm a non-pregnant woman. They’ll at least make you sick as a dog. So nice in theory, but unless there was an herb once used that isn’t known anymore, I doubt it’s literally true. (Of course, if there was once such an herb, I could see it being over harvested to extinction.) ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/153 "2013-07-30T13:57:05Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Srsly? Because male infidelity is not a threat to heteropatriarchy. I had to look that one up. > **[Post by @theendofempire](https://www.tumblr.com/theendofempire/11912977162/what-is-heteropatriarchy)** > > What is "heteropatriarchy"? > heteropatriarchy: > > Heteropatriarchy ensures male right of access to women. Women's relations - personal, professional, social, economic… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/154 "2013-07-30T14:33:04Z")
I wonder what the Old Testament penalty was for poisoning wells. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/155 "2013-07-30T16:25:57Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > . . . “an eye for an eye” was intended to stop punishment circle of violence - just take an eye for an eye and don’t Hatfield & McCoy it for ages (which was what invariably would happen). Just for the record, Judaism interprets “eye for an eye” to mean that the punishment must be in proportion to the crime, not as license to poke people’s eyes out. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/156 "2013-07-30T16:33:43Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Did God really tell Moses that the curse would work? Does it work now? Did it ever work? I don’t know, though I can imagine it working via the power of suggestion (or placebo effect). See also **WhyNot** ’s speculation. > [@](#): > > Why didn’t God give Moses a test for an unfaithful husband? If you’re looking for sexual parity, you’re going to have a hard time finding it in any pre-modern society. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/157 "2013-07-30T17:17:21Z")
The test also seems to be an invitation for the priests to decide what to give the accused woman. If he wants to punish her, he gives her a plant that makes her sick and confirms the husband’s suspicions. If he wants to exonerate her, he gives her an innocuous plant. Or maybe this is a way to officially clear women of adultery. The husband who is publicly shamed by rumors of his wife’s infidelity takes her to the priest, the priest gives her the magic water, nothing happens, and the woman is officially declared to be innocent and now everyone is expected to shut up about it, regardless of what actually happened. And this is a way to bring people who are on the verge of losing their place in the community back into the community, and telling everyone that God has officially found the woman innocent, so any more loose talk about this will annoy God. As for why men aren’t subject to things like this, duh. Because patriarchy doesn’t work that way. Adultery is having sex with a married woman and is an offense against her husband. A married man having sex is not adultery, unless he does it with another man’s wife. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/158 "2013-07-30T17:21:15Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The test also seems to be an invitation for the priests to decide what to give the accused woman. If he wants to punish her, he gives her a plant that makes her sick and confirms the husband’s suspicions. If he wants to exonerate her, he gives her an innocuous plant. That is a bit concerning. Even more surprising to me (and maybe a pro-life Christian can comment on this) is the implication that a miscarriage is an acceptable punishment for adultery. These seems like the kind of thing a pro-life God wouldn’t take part in. > [@](#): > > Or maybe this is a way to officially clear women of adultery. The husband who is publicly shamed by rumors of his wife’s infidelity takes her to the priest, the priest gives her the magic water, nothing happens, and the woman is officially declared to be innocent and now everyone is expected to shut up about it, regardless of what actually happened. And this is a way to bring people who are on the verge of losing their place in the community back into the community, and telling everyone that God has officially found the woman innocent, so any more loose talk about this will annoy God. Agreed. Considering the times this is actually a pretty good system, it seems to me. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/159 "2013-07-30T17:23:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Even more surprising to me (and maybe a pro-life Christian can comment on this) is the implication that a miscarriage is an acceptable punishment for adultery. These seems like the kind of thing a pro-life God wouldn’t take part in. Yahweh kills humans all the time- the prohibition is on us murdering each other. (Self defense and some other situations are not murder.) ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473/160 "2013-07-30T17:28:12Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Yahweh kills humans all the time- the prohibition is on us murdering each other. (Self defense and some other situations are not murder.) But it seems to me that God is commanding the priest to administer an abortion, practically speaking. If the woman has committed adultery then the water will cause a miscarriage. I’m not sure how you can say that’s God killing the unborn child rather than the priest doing it, especially since the priest has literally been told by God what will happen if the woman drinks the water having committed adultery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-verses-2-kings-2-23-24-numbers-5-11-31/664473.md?page=9)