# Bible Waver invasion of Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308 "2003-06-20T23:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/21 "2003-06-21T01:15:09Z")
There are some people posting here who think they are the fountain of wisdom. Those are the ones who twist words and intentions and try to sell their own visions and agenda on what they want to be said, but which isn’t be said by a poster. I don’t go into such silly replies. But I’m sorry to disappoint you, Christians weren’t “persecuted” in Iraq and by the way. More then 97% of the citizens are Muslim. And Monty, you are a funny person. I see that I’m going to be much amused by you. And tracer: ever touched a splinter bomb? Why don’t you go try it. Aldebaran. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/22 "2003-06-21T01:15:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reeder \* > \*\*[http://www.informationclearinghouse](http://www.informationclearinghouse)…article3827.htm > […] > [http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/5402104](http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/5402104) \*\* Both of those articles were written by a guy named Bob Graham. Is he any relation to Franklin Graham, by any chance? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/23 "2003-06-21T01:16:48Z")
(Fixed first link above: [http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3827.htm](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3827.htm)) ---
**Author:** ![Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/35a633/32.png) [@Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susma_Rio_Sep)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/24 "2003-06-21T01:17:43Z")
Saddam’s Iraq and Turkey are the two secularist states in the Muslim world. The governments there don’t believe in favoring any religion, even that of the Muslim Shia or Sunni majority and minority. Sad to say, with Saddam gone, secularism also went with him. I am not a Saddam 's fan – pro Iraq war advocates are always ready to pounce on anyone with so much as a shadow of a doubt of pro Saddam bias. Super, please do some good background reading on Saddam’s Iraq and also on Turkey. It might be that I am the greater fool here for being misinformed, though. Susma Rio Sep > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Super Gnat \* > \*\*Wow. So because one Protestant is accused of curing alcoholism and another Protestant is accused of wanting to convert Muslims to Christianity, therefore all Protestants are wrong and evil? That is the equivalent of saying that all Muslims are wrong and evil because some Muslims choose to suicide bomb Israel. > > At any rate, there is a possible non-evil interpretation. In Saddam’s Iraq, conversion to Christianity was punishable by death (cite) It is possible that some Christian religious leader somewhere was rejoicing over the fact that Muslims in Iraq can now convert without fear of death. No scariness, no xenophobia, just someone rejoicing in bringing freedom of religion to Iraq. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/25 "2003-06-21T01:17:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > **And tracer: ever touched a splinter bomb? Why don’t you go try it.** No, but then again, I’m not an unborn baby. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/26 "2003-06-21T01:18:32Z")
Tracer, I forgot to ask: how do you name an Iraqi child that is still in its mother’s womb when the mother is killed. A piece of monkey trash? Aldebaran ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/27 "2003-06-21T01:22:26Z")
**Monty** …This guy is saying Saddam allowed people who converted to be murdered yet his #3 man and spokesman was a christian?? Give me a break. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/28 "2003-06-21T01:30:14Z")
**Aldebaran** , I’m appalled as you are at the idea of evangelical Christians going into Iraq and under the guise of humanitarian aide spreading their faith. I’ve been on the receiving ends of such actions in this country and am tired of it. But your confrontational style, ad homien attacks and lack of substance in your replies is not debating, it’s ranting. If you want to debate, that’s fine, but please stick to the facts when doing so. So far, all you’ve done is provide rumor and innuendo. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/29 "2003-06-21T01:34:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reeder \* > \*\ ***Monty** …This guy is saying Saddam allowed people who converted to be murdered yet his #3 man and spokesman was a christian?? Give me a break. \*\* It is my understanding that _apostasy_ from Islam is a crime punishable by death in some of the really conservative Muslim nations. If you’re born into another religion, you’re free to practice it. Somebody will correct me if I’m wrong. Meanwhile, I think I’ll head over to **Neurotik** ’s Pit thread about the OP. Should be a good time. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/30 "2003-06-21T01:36:29Z")
Freyr, Well you can see it like that, yet it is not. I bring fact. If you like me to wave more sentences around them, well that is a hopeless quest. Ah yes, I’m confrontational and occasionally provocative too. Why not? You can’t have any debate if people all agree, or can you? This doesn’t mean that one can’t debate polite and if necessary at the end agree on disagreement, no? By the way: where do you see me placing “ad hominem attacks”. I’ve been on the receiving end… I have the impression you discover ad hominem attacks where you dream them and overlook them where they are. Aldebaran ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/31 "2003-06-21T01:42:12Z")
cuau… Apostasy is in Al Qur’an nowhere mentioned as leading to death penalty. You musn’t mix up the teachings of that religion with particular, sectarian inspired practices who place certain unreliable hadith before the first source of Islam. I call such people Hadith worshippers. They are out of touch with the core of the religion. They are a scandal for the whole Muslim world. Aldebaran. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/32 "2003-06-21T01:42:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cuauhtemoc \* > \*\*It is my understanding that _apostasy_ from Islam is a crime punishable by death in some of the really conservative Muslim nations. If you’re born into another religion, you’re free to practice it. Somebody will correct me if I’m wrong. > > Meanwhile, I think I’ll head over to **Neurotik** ’s Pit thread about the OP. Should be a good time. \*\* We are talking about Iraq. A secular nation. Definitely not a conservative Muslim nation. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/33 "2003-06-21T01:48:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > **Tracer, I forgot to ask: how do you name an Iraqi child that is still in its mother’s womb when the mother is killed.** “George”, if it’s a boy, and “Susanne” if it’s a girl. Oh, wait, you meant … Um … usually in discussing civilian casualties of war, one phrases this concept as “killing pregnant women,” not “killing unborn babies.” ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/34 "2003-06-21T01:51:55Z")
My understanding was that of **cuauhtemoc**. Is the constitution under Saddam on the Internet anywhere? That could easily clear it up. At any rate, even if conversion was freely allowed in Saddam’s Iraq, _operating under the assumption that it was not allowed_ it would make sense for Christian evangelics to be happy. I submit this as a possibliity only, and not as fact. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/35 "2003-06-21T02:02:05Z")
tracer, well you name it “kiling pregnant women”, and I name it “killing unborn babies”. Does that make a difference about the death of the child? Maybe in your opinion it sounds less life that is lost or something? Yet: a child is a child and a baby is a baby. Super Gnat, Why should Christians “be happy” to invade Iraq with their Bibles? They wont even be welcomed by the Christians there and of course they are also out on “converting” those to their brand of the Christian religion. Do you think the Iraqis will be happy? It is their country, you know. They don’t invite those Bible Wavers. They just have the incredible rudiness and arrogance to invade and impose themselves univited and unwanted. Aldebaran. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/36 "2003-06-21T02:03:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > **Why should Christians “be happy” to invade Iraq with their Bibles? They wont even be welcomed by the Christians there and of course they are also out on “converting” those to their brand of the Christian religion.** Because nothing makes a loony, Christian fundamentalist happier then getting to play martyr. That’s why they’ll be happy to experience resistance. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/37 "2003-06-21T02:04:20Z")
**Reeder** , both of Graham’s article describe GIs shooting at people in the midst of combat. There is no mention of any “butchering” “women, children, men, babies, unborn babies.” I will not be surprised to discover that there were instances of serious errors in judgment and even battle rage. (I will also suspend judgment that the events that Graham described happened _as he described them_ until I see some confirmation from other sources.) However, the claim, for which **Aldebaran** has provided no evidence, is that the soldiers were wantonly butchering civilians. Nothing in Graham’s report supports that claim. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/38 "2003-06-21T02:15:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\*tracer, well you name it “kiling pregnant women”, and I name it “killing unborn babies”. > > Does that make a difference about the death of the child? Maybe in your opinion it sounds less life that is lost or something? Yet: a child is a child and a baby is a baby.\*\* Volumes have been written on the subject of When Life Begins. Suffice it to say that it is **not** a definitively decided issue. Hence, it is preferred that when one is discussing civilian casualties, one refers to “killing pregnant women” instead of “killing unborn babies” so the whole thing doesn’t degenerate into yet another abortion debate. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/39 "2003-06-21T02:19:28Z")
tomndebb Well you must have missed among others the article where an interviewed US soldier replied on the question why on earth he killed a woman: " I don’t know…That chick got in my way." Oh wait… I think that was at the BBC website. With name and rank of that soldier. And so sorry I don’t come up immediately with things you ask for. You’ll get them when I remember or find where I stored them, ok? Aldebaran. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/40 "2003-06-21T02:23:59Z")
tracer, We are not talking about “abortion”. We are talking about children who were babies in their mother’s womb. You know, that secret place where little babies grow, protected from the dangers of the outside world? And a baby that has been there six months and is born has survival chances. So are you going to divide between “non viable yet wanted and expected to devellop to fulgrown baby” expecting women and “viable babies expecting women”. Or how do you plan to do it? Aldebaran. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308.md?page=3)