# Bible Waver invasion of Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308 "2003-06-20T23:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/41 "2003-06-21T02:35:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\*\Super Gnat, > > Why should Christians “be happy” to invade Iraq with their Bibles? They wont even be welcomed by the Christians there and of course they are also out on “converting” those to their brand of the Christian religion. > Do you think the Iraqis will be happy? It is their country, you know. They don’t invite those Bible Wavers. They just have the incredible rudiness and arrogance to invade and impose themselves univited and unwanted. > > Aldebaran. \*\* First, I am not advocating the forced conversion of anyone anywhere. Second, why don’t you want Iraqis to convert of their own free will? Personally, although I don’t believe the US should have invaded Iraq, I have no problem with anyone using the opportunity to expose Iraqis to different religions, be they Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, or Satanism. Third, I do not, in fact, believe that “Bible Wavers” are invading Iraq and I will not believe it until I see evidence. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/42 "2003-06-21T02:39:00Z")
**Aldebaran** , you are still exaggerating. I have not claimed that no killings have taken place. I have noted that your claim grossly exaggerates what has happened. On the other hand, since your posts seem to be about 80% rant, 19% lurid imagination, and 1% fact, I can see that we are not going to get an honest discussion, here. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/43 "2003-06-21T02:41:14Z")
Super Gnad, The point here is: They are not invited. Aldebaran. ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/44 "2003-06-21T02:54:43Z")
So… what’s the debate? ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/45 "2003-06-21T02:59:54Z")
Should have clarified: They weren’t invited, and I see no evidence to suggest that they are, in fact there. So what’s the debate? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/46 "2003-06-21T03:08:40Z")
And we’re back to where we started… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/47 "2003-06-21T03:27:21Z")
Reeder: I wasn’t taking any position whatsoever on the bullshit assertion that Saddam murdered people merely for being converts. I was stating that AFAIK Aziz never converted–he was Christian from the get-go. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/48 "2003-06-21T03:39:14Z")
Of course Tareq Aziz is a born Christian. And that is the reason why he was never really trusted. Or one of the reason. The first being that he didn’t belong to the Tikriti. Aldebaran. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/49 "2003-06-21T03:46:22Z")
So, Saddam Hussein, one of the more paranoid leaders of the 20th/21th centuries, appointed somebody he “never really trusted” as his Deputy Prime Minister? Now that’s smooth! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/50 "2003-06-21T03:55:04Z")
Ignoring the OP’s hyperbole, I would basically agree that a.) There probably is some resentment of US soldiers by Iraqi civilians whether Americans feel that resentment is warranted or not, and b.) Any attempt by evangelists to go and convert Muslims in the wake of a war is unwelcome, insulting, arrogant, sanctimonious and probably totally futile. ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/51 "2003-06-21T04:01:01Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Aldebaran_ > It seems the Christian sect of your president planned even when the butchering of Iraqis was still in preparation, to invade the country with their “Jesus Saves” talks. I’m confused. Who, _exactly_, “planned” this Bible-thumping campaign? Was President Bush in on it? > [@](#): > > They want to “erradicate Islam” which their leader Graham describes as satanic , evil and whatever vile description comes in his mind. Mr Graham is decidedly _not_ the leader of all Protestants. > [@](#): > > Well, I would like to be on the front seat when those fanatics come in towns and villages where the US miliatry has butchered women, children, men, babies, unborn babies, and then spread “The Word”. The US military is ostensibly engaged in evangelism? > [@](#): > > Which implies they are going to claim that all those victims of the US greed have gone straight to hell, that their wounded and mutilated surviving relatives are going straight to hell if they eventually die because of the greedy USA and that all the survivors only can expect hell… If they don’t drop Islam and embrace the “Jesus saves” doctrine. Bible-thumpers will be Bible-thumpers. The US has had to deal with them since forever. > [@](#): > > The same doctrine of the president of the USA who claims he is “guided” and “inspired” by God for " cleaning the world of evil" = he was inspired by God to butcher the Iraqi Muslims. …said by the same president who said explicitly that Islam is a religion of peace. I apologize for being so ignorant, but I do not see the connection between “Cleaning the world of evil” and “Butchering Iraqi Muslims.” > [@](#): > > How do you think those Bible waving fanatics are going to be received? Like Bible-waving fanatics. > [@](#): > > My guess, informed about the religious feavor of especially Shi’ a Muslims, but Sunny Muslims can get a bit hot tempered too, they aren’t going to survive the first sermon “Jesus saves” and you are all doomed. Yes. Absolutely. The hot-tempered Sunni Muslims will kill the evil Bible-thumpers. At least the Hindus are safe from your obnoxiously large brush. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/52 "2003-06-21T04:05:34Z")
Not sure what you want to debate? You don’t want Christians selling their religion in a Muslim Country? That’s not a debate. That’s a statement of personal preference. I can accept that. I’ll trade you even for the Wahabi Quran thumpers over here. ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/53 "2003-06-21T04:50:46Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m talking about the intention of fundamentalistic Christians to invade a Muslim nation with their proselytizing tactics under the cloack of “humanitarian aid”. > [@](#): > > Apostasy is in Al Qur’an nowhere mentioned as leading to death penalty. You musn’t mix up the teachings of that religion with particular, sectarian inspired practices who place certain unreliable hadith before the first source of Islam. > I call such people Hadith worshippers. They are out of touch with the core of the religion. They are a scandal for the whole Muslim world. Hmm, seems we can generalise when we feel like it, then get pretty specific when it suits our agenda. > [@](#): > > How do you think those Bible waving fanatics are going to be received? My guess, informed about the religious feavor of especially Shi’ a Muslims, but Sunny Muslims can get a bit hot tempered too, they aren’t going to survive the first sermon “Jesus saves” and you are all doomed. And if a "fundamentalistic " muslims decided to come to America to convert some christians, would it be intolerant of me to say; \*Well, I would like to be on the front seat when those fanatics come in towns and villages where the muslim extremists has butchered women, children, men, babies, unborn babies, and then spread “The Word”. Which implies they are going to claim that all those victims of the “jihad” have gone straight to hell, that their wounded and mutilated surviving relatives are going straight to hell if they eventually die because of the “devout muslims” and that all the survivors only can expect hell… If they don’t drop “Jesus saves” and embrace the Islam doctrine. The same doctrine of the most notorious terrorist in the world who claims he is “guided” and “inspired” by God for " cleaning the world of evil" = he was inspired by God to butcher the American people. How do you think those Quran waving fanatics are going to be received? My guess, informed about the religious feavor of especially “fundamentalistic” Christians, but Christians and Jews in general can get a bit hot tempered too, they aren’t going to survive the first sermon “There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet” and you are all doomed.\* And **tomndebb** _did_ answer your question, and very succinctly IMO. There is a reason why there is religious freedom in my country. And there is a reason some forms are outlawed. That is because civilized people have decided that no man shall force his religious ideals upon another, yet the freedom to express their religion is vital to their life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And while I make no parallel’s to my country and iraq, those are not ideas that should be considered mutually exclusive to individual nations. As Far as what you said about the evangelists in your OP, while I do not find it tolerant or benevolent per se, I think they have just as much right to spread their faith as anyone, as long as they do not harm others in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/54 "2003-06-21T04:52:58Z")
Duke, Saddam had representatives from every minority and majority in his government. That doesn’t mean they belonged to his intimate circle. Only those of his own tribe where. Iraq is a snakepit of contradictions. Hussein was a vicous tyrant, but under Hussein all those contradictions were forcibly in balance. That balance is gone. And you ain’t seen nothing yet. Aldebaran. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/55 "2003-06-21T05:07:05Z")
Oh God, the fanatic Muslim haters come on board. Well, I don’t answer such posts unless you can come up with something worth reading and answering. Are you so ignorant and brainwashed about "islam = terrorism or do you want to pass for such. It is a proven tactic on message boards to twist the discussion into an own particular agenda but I’m so sorry, I don’t fall in that trap. This is about US Christian fanatics planning to invade a Muslim nation that is flattened by the USA and where thousands of people were killed by the USA. You should know, since you are sooooooooooo familiar with Islam, that Muslims see Christianity as blasphemy. That is why Muslims will never “invite” or “welcome” such Bible wavers and that is why their plans to exploit the misery of this country and its population is as disgusting as can me. My question was if Christians find those tactics in accordance with the teachings of Jesus. And to the non Christians to give gheir opinion based on their impressions. I didn’t see much answers yet. This forum seems to have no clue how to debate things in a civilised manner. The vast majority of the posters I’ve seen so far ar oh so self-entered and think oh so highly about themselves. Well people, you canthink like that about yourselves but you are acting like kids of 12 years old who have formed a little closed group. Sorry I have to say this, but you make me say it with your 12 year old behaviour. Aldebaran. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/56 "2003-06-21T05:10:54Z")
Oh Forgot: A little teaching to cure a bit your absolute ignorance: Al Qur’an sura V al-ma’ida ; 69. Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,–any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,–on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. Voilà. Aldebaran. ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/57 "2003-06-21T05:18:57Z")
“Oh God, the fanatic Muslim haters come on board.” Not at all. I paraphrased your vitriol to show you how much of a ‘fanatic Christian hater’ you sound. I am sorry you didn’t get it. But now that I spell it out to you do you understand why this is not a debate you are looking for? There are several other forums here your rant or ‘questions’ would be more appropriate. > [@](#): > > This forum seems to have no clue how to debate things in a civilised manner If you do not like the responses, do not ask the questions. And I did answer your question. Why do you chose to ignore it along with others you ignore? _As Far as what you said about the evangelists in your OP, while I do not find it tolerant or benevolent per se, I think they have just as much right to spread their faith as anyone, as long as they do not harm others in the process._ And your only response is; > [@](#): > > Oh God, the fanatic Muslim haters come on board. > Sorry I have to say this, but you make me say it with your 12 year old behaviour. heh. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/58 "2003-06-21T05:49:10Z")
1.Well if you write English instead of letters, I can reply. If you start writing unreadable things like “OP” and such, I can’t reply. 2. I do not spread vitriol on religions . That is your wxrong and prjudiced interpretation and that is not my concern. It should be yours though. Try to get rid of your prejudiced coloured glasses. 3. I open a topic about the question of the fanatic Bible wavers ready to invade Iraq. 4. That is not a topic about anything else but that. 5. Answers like : “this is not a debate but a statement” are not ansers, but statements. Again, try to get rid of your prejudice coloured glasses. 6. What 'several forums" where I can post a topoic like this. I can hardly know all about this board when I post here for the second day. 7. You act, especially with that remark, exactly like someone who has no clue about civilized interaction. Aldebaran. ---
**Author:** ![lno](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a8b319/32.png) [@lno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lno)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/59 "2003-06-21T07:05:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > 1.Well if you write English instead of letters, I can reply. > If you start writing unreadable things like “OP” and such, I can’t reply. > … > 6. What 'several forums" where I can post a topoic like this. I can hardly know all about this board when I post here for the second day. > 7. You act, especially with that remark, exactly like someone who has no clue about civilized interaction. We’ve tried to explain this elsewhere. It would really behoove you if you were to actually learn a little about how this board and community function before jumping in with both feet. In that way, you would understand what an OP is, you would understand what forums are, and you would act like someone remotely coherent. As it is, you’re making us wonder if you have to constantly wipe froth from your mouth as you gibber helplessly. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/60 "2003-06-21T07:15:13Z")
I want to sympathise with **Aldebaran’s** position – I opposed this damn fool war from the beginning, I think George W. Bush is a boneheaded moron, I can’t stand evangelical Christians, etc… …but his “take no prisoners” hyperbolic style just makes me want to go far away and avoid the thread all together. I can’t even muster up the effort to be sympathetic, because he apparently isn’t even making an _effort_ to tone down his confrontational attitude and/or listen to the suggestions that other folks are making. **Aldebaran,** not everyone here is against you… yet. But if you don’t calm down and present your views in a respectable and clear manner, you _will_ turn everyone against you, if only out of sheer annoyance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308.md?page=4)