# Bible Waver invasion of Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308 "2003-06-20T23:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/121 "2003-06-24T02:49:42Z")
Jo jo, I’m Arabist. That means that Islam is my studyfield. That includes the study of the Hadieth. If you aren’t familiar with that study, it is very difficult to see which one can be taken serious (with the precation of the historion added here) and which are absolutely unrealistic. There are shelves of books in my library filled with the study on just that. But to keep it simple: every hadith that contradicts Al Qur’an or is in opposition with its teaching in no matter which way is invalid. There is no death penalty in Al Qur’an mentioned for apostacy. A,d about the remark that such an action isolates a person: that is exactly what I talk about in all my previous posts. The actions those proselytizers want to undertake, rude, arrogant, uninvited, are going to cause disrupture of the social structure in a country that is already destroyed and shattered enough as it is. And why should I want to “stop people” for saying anything? If you say: I spit on God, or I spit on Muhammed, or I spit or jesus, must that be my concern? I hope not, because if it is, then I have a lot of weight on my shoulders seen the aount of people who do that everyday worldwide. Mehitable, No, not al all… 🙂 Salaam. Aldebaran ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/122 "2003-06-24T02:50:26Z")
“The Bible is a great book. But it’s not the only book”. - the Clarence Darrow character in INHERIT THE WIND ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/123 "2003-06-24T03:27:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > That is a severe misunderstanding/misinformation that is widely spread in the West, I know. Yet the reality is quite the opposite. Conversion was even not encouraged and Islam spread because of the presence of trading posts (in the beginning) and later because people wanted to become part of the bureacracy and the governing system. But because non Muslims payed dhimmi taxes which provided income for the State, conversion in new gained terrirtories was not such a goal as people in the West are made believe. Without tackling the rest of this thread ( which is giving me a headache ), this is an inaccurate assessment. The disinclination to convert non-Arabs ( and they did actively seek to convert Arab populations in both what was Syria and southern Iraq ) was during a relatively brief period - the first century of the Caliphate. It was not a case of _jizya_ being singularly important, but rather that **almost all** taxation ( other than the _zakat_ ), including land tax, fell on non-Muslims ( and in this context, non-Arabs ). That was already changing by the reign of Umar II and after the Abbasid coup, that arrangement largely disappeared. Taxation from poll taxes was rarely ( I’d be inclined to say never ) the primary income stream - land taxes were. Proselytizing was not the only way Islam spread, but it was eventually one of them. Sufi missionaries were particularly active in late-medieval India, for example. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/124 "2003-06-24T05:31:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > Monty, > > If i persuade you that your religion is evil and wrong, I take away by force your religion. > That is no: you making a choice. That is me, influencing you to accept that your religion is evil in order to sell you mine. > > That is force, not free wil. Oh, bullshit. By this statement, you condem the Noble Qur’an itself. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, if you out of free will come to me and ask me to explain my religion, walks away with that information, studies it, comes back to me or go look elswhere for more information, studies it, and after the time needed to reflect and compar comes to thr conclusion that my religion could be one that appeals more to you then the one you follow and you come to abandon that for accepting mine, then you have made your own free choice. In other words, if someone’s preaching what you want others to believe, then’s it’s fine and dandy; however, if they’re preaching what they want others to believe, they’re scum. [qutoe]Salaam. [/quote] Save it. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/125 "2003-06-24T05:58:08Z")
**Aldebaran** I agree with you that Christians should not go into Iraq for the purpose of converting Muslims to Christianity. It would be nice if we could learn to live side by side in peace with each other and with respect for each other’s beliefs. So I am on your side of the debate about that. I am a Christian and I can still believe what I said above. I hope that you understand that not all Christians believe exactly the same things. Is that true of Islam too? I believe that all of us are One in spirit and that Allah is the same being that I call God. I like Susma’s prayer and his peaceful ways. Since you are new to being part of Straight Dope Message Board, we understand that you will not know all of the ways to do things here. There is a lot to learn! All of us have been new at some point and had to learn the way things are done. I am still learning too. One of the things that I have learned is that when I say that something is a fact in “Great Debates,” it is a courtesy, a custom, a tradition to provide a source other than your own self on that information. I respect that you are a professor and an Arabist. You know things that I cannot possibly know. I am also a teacher. I even used to teach people how to debate. One of the first things that my students had to learn was that to be convincing, a debater has to provide sources of information other than himself. It doesn’t matter if a person is a Prince or a President or a Prime Minister or a Professor. All would be expected to provide another source. So it is in no way an insult to ask for a "cite’ or to be asked. Everyone here is asked to do that often. It is the way to have your opinions and truths respected and listened to. I know that dyslexia is very hard to live with. Maybe it would help to read again the things that posters have said, especially the words of Polycarp, Freyr, Mangetout and Tomndebb. They are trying to help you. I have not said anything in this post that was meant to insult or hurt you. Okay? Salaam, Pax, Peace ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/126 "2003-06-24T06:32:58Z")
> [@](#): > > I wonder what they actually think to achieve. Bringing here and there a person so far that he doesn’t attend the mosque anymore, sits at home with a Bible and is an outcast because he doesn’t participate anymore in what is the very basic of the whole society: Islam…? Which also means that if it is a man that he can’t get married and if it is a woman, she won’t find anyone ready to mary her? Are you condoning declaration of belief only to fit in society? I am sure there are millions in the MENA region that do not embrace Islam, publicly or privately, and they are not damaging society. They may be restricted by Islamic laws, but that is the government forcing their ideals on others. You can’t blame the others for that. And I do not believe that even the fanatical evangelists are forcing others to convert. That is propaganda on your part, unless you want to back up your assertion with some evidence. 🙂 And whether you believe that Muslim’s do or should go out and proselytize is irrelevant. And evidence many have shown in personal experiences, books, and even web site’s seem to belie 🙂 [http://www.thetruereligion.org/convertwave.htm](http://www.thetruereligion.org/convertwave.htm) Imagine this objectively if you can. Da’wa = Jesus Saves. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c37758/32.png) [@Alan\_Owes\_Bess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Owes_Bess)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/127 "2003-06-24T13:37:07Z")
Aldebaran, In one of your earlier posts you made the claim that apostasy was nowhere mentioned in the Koran as leading to the death penalty. You also said that such claims were based on the hadith and, presumably, had no weight in Islam. I am an earnest student of the teachings of the Prophet (SBUH) and I notice the following from chapter 9.5 of the Koran: “But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.” In other words, Islam in this verse. Islam will spare the life of an unbeliever if only he submits to Islam. There is no way to escape death if one decides to keep his/her old faith after being defeated by merciful Islam. Perhaps you have an alternative explanation? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/128 "2003-06-24T13:58:25Z")
[Time Magazine cover article on Iraq missionaries](http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101030630/story.html) For information. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/129 "2003-06-24T14:19:01Z")
Alan: Converstion to Islam does not constitute, by any stretch of the imagination, apostasy from Islam. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/130 "2003-06-24T14:32:59Z")
**Alan Owes Bess** , that particular Sura has been discussed several times on this board. The general consensus is that it is a specific statement made regarding a specific struggle in which Muhammed and his followers were engaged, not a general order for all time. [**Tamerlane** provided an explanation for the beginning of Sura 9 (from which 9.5 is frequently quoted out of context), here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2637512#post2637512) (About half way down the fairly long post.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/131 "2003-06-24T14:34:19Z")
(Oh, and as **Monty** has noted, the pagans to whom Sura 9.5 refers _cannot_ have been apostates, since they had never converted to Islam.) ---
**Author:** ![Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/35a633/32.png) [@Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susma_Rio_Sep)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/132 "2003-06-24T16:43:11Z")
Dear Ald: I guess you know that all founders of religion enjoin their followers to make converts. That’s true of Christianity and Islam. But Judaism and Hinduism and Shinto(ism)? I fear I have to take back that word. I will say something more correct, I think, in Christianity and in Islam, the respective founder enjoins his followers to make converts. So Christians go forth to proselytize as soon as political climate is propitious, or specially when this circumstance is favorable. So also Muslims. It’s all in the market of religion, as I said earlier; as in the market of ideas, and similarly in every market for any items looking for patronage from humans, like computer and computer programs or operating systems, and pizza. Correct me if I am wrong. Islam started in the 7th century of the Christina era. The whole of North Africa used to be Christian, then Islam took over, same with the Middle East and Near East. In the Far East Islam seems to have done much better than Christianity. Missionaries are merchants of religion. How and when they make a sale depend upon the quality of their merchandise, the way it’s packaged and advertised, the personality of the vendors, and most important the character of the prospective customers or buyers. And I almost forgot, missionaries have to make discount on the price of their products; otherwise in many instances they don’t succeed in making any sale at all. Missionaries are also agents of change, for the better or for the worse. Christianity changed the face of the lands it turned to Christ; so also with Islam. Now, we are witnessing, as you have informed us, the return of Christian missionaries to Iraq. I think there was a time when Iraq was also Christian. Is proselytization evil? ? You say “That is inherently evil.” I don’t think it’s evil in any sense, except to the people of one religion opposing the introduction of a different one by others, who are outsiders. Certainly, it is not evil in the same way as killing and stealing is evil. If it’s evil then Muslims missionaries working among the black peoples of Africa are doing an evil deed, so also would Christians as you claim in regard to Iraq. If I may give you a piece of advice: Your hostility against the impending arrival of Christian missionaries in Iraq, in the wake of the U.S. ‘liberation’ of Iraq and its subsequent occupation, would seem to be no different, from the anger of one shop owner against a new one setting up shop just across the street. Take it easy. Be a postgraduate Muslim like I am a postgraduate Catholic; then you will enjoy more peace and equanimity. If you have to protect and preserve the Islam faith of Iraqis, limit yourself to speaking and writing. Please don’t undertake any violent acts. The way you talk, I am afraid that you might be heading toward suicidal bombing or self-immolation by fire. Susma Rio Sep > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\*OK, I’ll devide that in personal and general. > > Personal: > > 1. my opposition against and disgust about people going uninvited into a coutry with the goal to destroy the religion ot the citizens. That is inherently evil. If you have a religion, it is your way of worshipping God. Your personal way, that makes you feel you are doing the right think to express your devition. > No one has the right to take that away from you with whatever method use. No one has the right to destroy your faith. > Those Bible Wavers have only that goal: destroy people’s faith and replace it with what they claim is The Only Righ One. > The utterly arrogance of this state of mind makes me vomit by the thought alone. I declare such people criminals, out to destroy on what other people see as the most important in their life (for a Muslim, God as portrayed in islam and Al Qur’an, see as the Message of God given to him as a guidance, is the most important of his possesions). > > 2. In general. > For that you should re-read my explanations about how intertwined Islam is in every aspect of the bleievers daily life, worldview, family and social interaction and the very structure of the whole society. > Those proselytizers are out on disturbing all of that and replace it with alien religion, alien views alien customes and alien culture destroying the whole life of the individual they get to “convert” and with that causing a chain reaction that will affect not only the individual but all his relatives, his whole family, his tribal connections and so on. > > I wonder what they actually think to achieve. Bringing here and there a person so far that he doesn’t attend the mosque anymore, sits at home with a Bible and is an outcast because he doesn’t participate anymore in what is the very basic of the whole society: Islam…? Which also means that if it is a man that he can’t get married and if it is a woman, she won’t find anyone ready to mary her? > > I’m sorry, but these people are insane. > > Salaam. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/133 "2003-06-24T20:21:05Z")
Susma, I think you have some Media pictured idea of all Muslims, especially Arabs, being ready to become a “suicide bomber” Well, I may be known at home as an excentric lunatic, but I can assure you that I’m not as mad as you fear I may be :). As for all the others, I’m afraid I can’t asnwer you today because of lack of time (and yes, the post made by Tamerlan on that other topic about sura 9 gives a correct explanation). Maybe I can reply tomorrow. But I’m not sure, since the moderator on that topic some members found needed to make “about” me on this strange BBQ board, has come on board to say he’ll get me banned because " I don’t want to fit in". I guess he means by that that I’m not excatly inclined to kneel down and kiss the feet of a gathering of people who clearly refuse to grow up. So if I’m banned, which means you wont see me back: Please be so kind to accept my appreciation for our short encounter and for your replies and input in what could is in my opinion an interesting change of thoughts and views. Salaam. Aldebaran. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/134 "2003-06-24T20:38:22Z")
I’m going to say, Aldebaran, that post of 4:21 PM, is a lot closer to the kind of patience and thought we appreciate here. I hope that you are not banned, you learn appropriate manners, and that you are a long and productive member of this board. Really. It’s just manners, nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/135 "2003-06-24T23:12:39Z")
Aldebaran, This has nothing to do with the subject of this thread but while you’re here, I just wondered what your thoughts were on Koran 4:34: > [@](#): > > Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme. ?? ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2003, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/136 "2003-06-24T23:37:33Z")
Maybe the Iraqis will be more interested in killing evangilists than American troops. ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/137 "2003-06-25T03:25:27Z")
I sure hope that those missionaries to Iraq will follow the timeless advice of Francis of Assisi. “Preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words.” Unfortunately, I know better. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/138 "2003-06-25T04:57:52Z")
Interestingly, even Fundamentalist Christians are not uniform in support of Franklin Graham as noted on the [Religious Tolerance web site](http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter18d.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/35a633/32.png) [@Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susma_Rio_Sep)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2003, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/139 "2003-06-25T23:01:30Z")
Dear Sabbath: And I hope myself moderators don’t ban people here because of complaints from others, specially not on ideas or subjects. What moderators should do is to remind complaining people to exclude posters they don’t like or can’t accept, keep them out of their sight. blacklist them, that’s the term?. Ald is doing us all here a very indispensable service. We have in Ald a real genuine live fervent true Muslim and most probably Arab at that. He will give us the authentic straight dope of Islam and Arabism, as we can’t never get from our fellow Christians or Western sources. By the way, do you notice that Ald has mellowed to some extent from his first posts? Susma Rio Sep > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by E-Sabbath \* > \*\*I’m going to say, Aldebaran, that post of 4:21 PM, is a lot closer to the kind of patience and thought we appreciate here. > > I hope that you are not banned, you learn appropriate manners, and that you are a long and productive member of this board. > > Really. It’s just manners, nothing more. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308/140 "2003-06-25T23:10:29Z")
> [@](#): > > We have in Ald a real genuine live fervent true Muslim and most probably Arab at that. He will give us the authentic straight dope of Islam and Arabism, as we can’t never get from our fellow Christians or Western sources. This is remotely possible, although I do not recall him actually claiming to have any religious connection beyond a Catholic mother. He has not been threatened for being different. It was suggested that if he was going to play games and post for the sheer sport of getting a rise out of people (a claim he did make, although the words he posted may have said something different than he intended), then he was not welcome. I am not looking to see him banned, but that choice is clearly in his hands. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bible-waver-invasion-of-iraq/183308.md?page=8)