Biblical inerrancy and literal interpretation; why?

Lekatt, sorry it took me so long to respond. to be honest I sort of forgot about this thread.

Your points about compassion and forgiveness are usually held up as original to Jesus, but in fact much of what Jesus said was already present in Jewish tradition (not to mention Buddhist, Hindu, etc.) In fact many of Jesus’ teachings were very similar to those of Rabbi Hillel a century before. For example, compare the “Golden Rule” with this quotation from Hillel :

What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor: this is the whole Torah. The rest is commentary; now go and study. - Rabbi Hillel, Babylonian Talmud Shabbat 31a
For that matter, take a look at Leviticus 19:18

There are similar variations of the Golden Rule present in virtually every other world religion, including many pre-Christian religions. Jesus’ ethical teachings in this area may have been admirable, but they were not startling or unique, even in his own Jewish tradition.

When I say that Jesus was “subversive” on the other hand, I’ll start with one of your own citations, i.e. “…the Kingdom of God is within you now.”

This is subversive because it undermines the authority of the church as an intermediary between the individual and God. Jesus basically said that access to God is available to anyone, at anytime, and that such access does not need to be moderated or brokered by religious institutions. This was probably best embodied by Jesus’ symbolic “destruction” of the temple; the act for which he was probably crucified.

Jesus was also quite radical in other ways. John Crossan speaks of two significant aspects of Jesus’ ministry in particular. The first is what Crossan calls “open commensality” or common dining. First century Palestine was a very stratified and rigid in its social classes. It was something akin to the Indian caste sytem in this respect. Who one associated with, ate with, or even touched was fraught with perils to perceived ritual “purity.” When Jesus ate with prostitutes, drunks, etc., this was much more radical in his own social context than it sounds to us today.

Crossan’s other discussion centers around what he calls the “radical egalitarianism” of Jesus. The culture that Jesus lived in perceived social conditions as being mandated by God. The poor, the outcast, the “meek” of Jesus’ beatitudes, were thought to be so because they were being punished by god. So for Jesus to say “blessed are the meek” was subversive in the sense that it inverted the accepted moral worldview.

Even Jesus’ “healings” were subversive. First of all, it should be understood that “healing” did not literally mean “curing.” They are two different words with different meanings. “Healing” referred to a spiritual exercise. If a person had “leprosy” for instance (this was not leprosy as we think of it today btw, it was just a generic term for any kind of skin condition, including eczema and psoriasis) He was considered “unholy.” When Jesus “healed” lepers, it was a social healing. He was accepting them as spiritual equals. In the book of Mark, when Jesus heals a leper, he is actually rendering himself ritually unclean simply by TOUCHING an “unclean” person. By doing so, Jesus was forcing people to either accept the “leper” into the community or to reject Jesus himself. Ditto all the dining with sinners. Jesus was sort of throwing himself onto a grenade of social conventions, risking his own social acceptance in order to bring such acceptance to others. These acts of Jesus, I believe, are the true marks of his greatness. He was not necessarily unique in that he elevated compassion over law; love over ritual “purity.” He was, however heroic in his committment and sacrifice for those beliefs.

I think the problem H4E is having is that she isn’t reconciling the difference between religion and philosophy. Christianity is a religion, Buddhism isn’t.

Christianity tells you, H4E, that you need to believe in Jesus to be saved and go to heaven when you’re dead. Buddhism, on the other hand, tells you how you can live peacefully while you’re still alive. It doesn’t tell you not to believe in Jesus, so it can be an adjunct. A set of guidelines that enhance the Christian ones without conflicting.

Is that so bad?

Not surprisingly, I’m finding this thread educational.

Not surprisingly, I’m finding this thread educational.

To: Diogenes the Cynic

I understand much of what Jesus said was not original to Him.
I was making the point that it was His teachings that caused the survival of Christianity. The early Christians practiced what He said and benefitted from the teachings. While today, many Christians are unware of these teachings, or not practicing them, and that, IMO is why Christianity is fading. They no longer follow Jesus or God.

In most cultures the basic “love one another” was taught by someone. The message has always been there for the aware.

Love
Leroy

Oops. Let me try that again…

I’m finding this thread educational.

But Buddhism is always listed as a religion, isn’t it? See thisreligions of the world site.

[hijack]
Do Buddhists actually worship a god? If not, how can it be classified as a religion? If so, how can it be classified as a philosophy?
[/hijack]

To: Diogenes the Cynic

I understand much of what Jesus said was not original to Him.
I was making the point that it was His teachings that caused the survival of Christianity. The early Christians practiced what He said and benefitted from the teachings. While today, many Christians are unware of these teachings, or not practicing them, and that, IMO is why Christianity is fading. They no longer follow Jesus or God.

In most cultures the basic “love one another” was/is taught by someone. The message has always been there for the aware.

Love
Leroy

Photophat:

Did you know that many Eastern languages don’t even have a WORD for religion. It’s a western idea. Like you said, Buddhism (especially Zen) is really a philosophical discipline not a devotional one.

Siddhartha Buddha himself used the analogy of a man who had been shot by an arrow to address questions about reincarnation or the afterlife. He said that people who asked such questions were like a man who had been shot asking questions about the make and materials of the arrow instead of just pulling it out. His point was that concerns about the next life were a distraction and a deterrant to finding peace in THIS life.

To clarify for H4E, Buddhism is not about WORSHIP. It is nontheistic. You can worship if you want to (in fact it’s considered to be good for you) but it’s not a requirement. There is no conlict between gods because Buddhism doesn’t HAVE a god.

Algernon, why does a religion have to recognize a god? There is no God in Buddhism. There is no God in Janism. There is no God in Advaita Vedantism. Some religions are based on a perception of spritual “laws” (e.g. karma, reincarnation, dharma) which exist independently of authoritarian “gods.”

There is no notion of “worship” as in western traditions. The emphasis is on personal enlightment.
lekatt: I think you’re right in that Jesus was successful (initially at least) in implementing his teachings, and really fixing ideas of universal compassion as part of human ideology. Unfortunately I think too much of that has been swallowed up Paul’s soteriological interpolations. The ethical teachings of Jesus now take a backseat to unimportant demands for the worship of Jesus.

The ethical teachings of Jesus now take a backseat to unimportant demands for the worship of Jesus.
Yes, you said it all very well.

No reason I guess, other than that is what I was led to believe as a consequence of my narrow, fundamentalist, Western Culture upbringing. ~grin~

My Funk and Wagnalls backs you up (sort of). It has this definition of religion…
“The beliefs, attitudes, emotions, behaviors, etc., constituting man’s relationship with the powers and principles of the universe, esp. with a diety or dieties.”

This definition goes far beyond a philosophy of how to live one’s life on earth, unless one stretches the definition of personal behavior to include “man’s relationship with the powers and principles of the universe.”

It now appears to me that “religion” is too strong of a word for Buddhism, yet “philosophy” sounds too weak. Is there another possible term of which I am unaware?

[hijack]I dunno, I think I’d argue that it’s a religion. Off the top of my head I can’t think of any nonreligious philosophy that has its own set of rituals and ceremonies, or that ordains monks.

But this seems like it might be getting kind of off-topic. Maybe we should start a separate thread for the Buddhism thing?[/hijack]

You make a good point KOS. In a lot of ways Buddhism is religious, and we are getting off topic, although the point is valid that Christians can learn about other religions without diminishing their own beliefs. If they are going to debate the value of different religions/philosophies, they should, rather than simply repeating “the bible is god’s word, so we don’t need anything else.” Especially since the only reason to believe the bible is god’s word is that (supposedly) it says somewhere in there that it is.

By the way, this post is the word of God.

See? It says so right there, and God wouldn’t lie, right? So it must be true.

How does that differ from the bible?

Isn’t Buddhism called a dharma?

Guinastasia:

“dharma” is a Sanskrit word that literally means “duty.” It has a broader meaning in eastern religion, however. It is akin to something like fate. Your dharma is what you are meant to do in life. It may be your dharma, for instance to be a great artist or to be a simple librarian. You are supposed to pursue your dharma to the best of your abilities, but without concern for selfish gains. The Bhagavad Gita contains one of the best known discussions of dharma. Prince Arjuna is at war. He does not want to kill people any more and decides to stop fighting. His charioteer Bhagavad (who is really Krishna in disguise) gives like a hundred page speech explaining to Arjuna that being a warrior is his “dharma” and that basically this makes it ok for him to kill people (I’m grossly oversimplifying this, but the whole discussion would take up three thread pages and bore the crap out of everyone.)

*Trivial side note

The novel and movie “The Legend of Bagger Vance” were based on The Bhagavad Gita. Bagger Vance = Bhagavad. The Matt Damon character, R. Junah = Arjuna. So when you’re watching the movie, remember, Will Smith is God.

I just wanted to thank you for the link, Polycarp. It was fascinating and very educational.

CJ

Diogenese: Are you sure about that? I thought Dharma meant “Path” as in “Path one follows intentionally.” I think what you just described is Karma. I could be wrong though.

Monty:

As I said dharma has a pretty broad meaning. A “path” is one sense of the word as it pertains to one’s fate or lot in life. It is not voluntary. It cannot be chosen or avoided. The choice involved is one’s attitude towards one’s dharma. It can be embraced or despised but it cannot be changed.

Dharma is also often used to describe one’s adherence to religious laws, family obligations, social duty, etc. As I said in my last post, the literal meaning of the word is “duty.” One has no control over what this duty is. Ignoring it is bad Karma.

Karma is simply the idea that one’s actions have positive or negative consequences. All actions, and even thoughts, have either good or bad karma. Karma is what decides one’s dharma for the next life.

Diogenes is right about dharma in Hinduism, but the word has different connotations in a Buddhist context. Buddhists define dharma (sometimes “dhamma”) as “truth” or “doctrine.” The Dharma that the Buddha taught was the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Noble Path. It’s sort of vaguely analogous to “creed” in Christianity.

His4ever, this being a thread about biblical inerrancy, I’m confused as to why you have not responded to my question posted a few days ago. Specifically:

OK, so you’re a complete literalist – you don’t see how that can mean anything other than what it says. Fine.

Do you believe that we live on a flat earth?

I gave you specific Biblical references. Why have you not answered?