# "Biblical" Marrages? are people really okay with this? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926 "2011-08-24T17:56:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/101 "2011-08-25T15:02:52Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Question – why do you want to be in a relationship with someone who sees themselves as subordinate? Mainly because it’s my preference and also because most girls prefer to be led, although many will not admit it and are not even aware of it themselves. > [@](#): > > If you’re in a relationship with them, presumably you see them being intelligent/having good judgment, so wouldn’t you want them to realize they’re just as awesome and smart as you? It’s not really a matter of capabilities as preferences. Even if my wife were just as smart as me I would still prefer to be boss. If her judgment were better than mine then I would give more weight to her input. > [@](#): > > Assuming you don’t think she has as good judgment as you, why do you want to stay with her? Why intentionally put yourself in an inequal relationship? Why not? It’s not like it’s carved in stone somewhere that all relationships must be equal. Besides, the laws of statistics pretty much guarantee that there will be a huge male/female imbalance at the upper reaches of the intelligence distribution. Besides, don’t you think you are being a bit judgmental? Would you ask a gay friend how he could possibly like the idea of being in a relationship with another man? > [@](#): > > Also, if you have daughters, do you worry about them getting bad ideas about relationships? No I don’t. My daughters see me working hard and exercising leadership for the benefit of the family. I hope that that they men with these qualities for marriage partners. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/102 "2011-08-25T15:04:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So you would be incapable of being in a relationship with a person who would not subordinate herself to you? I wouldn’t say “incapable,” but it’s my preference. > [@](#): > > Why are you afraid of an equal partnership? It’s not fear, it’s my preference. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/103 "2011-08-25T15:15:47Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Mainly because it’s my preference and also because most girls prefer to be led, although many will not admit it and are not even aware of it themselves. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/104 "2011-08-25T15:16:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Mainly because it’s my preference and also because most girls prefer to be led, although many will not admit it and are not even aware of it themselves. The first point – we’ve established you prefer it. I’m asking why? The second point gets a little creepy. If women are saying they don’t like to be led and don’t even know they like it…how do _you_ know what they like? I mean, if I told you that deep down you’d prefer a strong, independent woman, you’d think that was obnoxious. > [@](#): > > Why not? It’s not like it’s carved in stone somewhere that all relationships must be equal. Besides, the laws of statistics pretty much guarantee that there will be a huge male/female imbalance at the upper reaches of the intelligence distribution. Why do you assume that? > [@](#): > > Besides, don’t you think you are being a bit judgmental? Would you ask a gay friend how he could possibly like the idea of being in a relationship with another man? No, because sexual attraction can’t be changed. I don’t think preference for a subordinate partner is nearly as fixed. > [@](#): > > No I don’t. My daughters see me working hard and exercising leadership for the benefit of the family. I hope that that they men with these qualities for marriage partners. Sure, but teenagers have notoriously bad judgment. I’m not even talking about marriage. What if one of your daughters was going out with a guy pressuring her into sex, as teen boys are wont to do? How can you teach her to stand up to herself when you’re saying at the same time men should lead? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/105 "2011-08-25T15:17:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t really see anyone saying she shouldn’t be _allowed_ to choose it. Is anyone arguing that there should be a law against the kind of relationship these two people are having? The type of folks I’m talking to typically don’t make actual arguments for any position. But at least one has implied that it’s abuse, and others have said that it just shouldn’t be done, which is tantamount to saying it should be illegal. > [@](#): > > Because that really sounds more like a [Conservative](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_%282008%29) [worldview](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Proposition_2_%282005%29) [to](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Amendment_2) [me](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alabama_Sanctity_of_Marriage_Amendment). > > [But maybe that’s just me.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_status_in_the_United_States_by_state) Yes, thank you, that is the exact right parallel to draw. The typical liberal doper can’t stand when social conservatives tell others how to run their lives, but they revel in telling others how to run their lives when it comes to economic matters. They think it’s groovy for people to let their freak flag fly on social matters, but on economic matters they are worse than Ward Cleaver. This thread presents an interesting example where the two worldviews get mixed up a bit, so I thought it would be a good teaching moment. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/106 "2011-08-25T15:22:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Cite? Mainly my own general observations and those of other men I have talked to. I doubt any scientific research has been done on this point. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/107 "2011-08-25T15:26:55Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Lol, probably because I’m a male chauvinist or something. I’d say that about covers it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/108 "2011-08-25T15:30:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Mainly my own general observations and those of other men I have talked to. I doubt any scientific research has been done on this point. You seek out subservient women that you feel are inferior to yourself in intellect and judgement, and use these contacts to determine that women _in general_ are inferior. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out what kind of household you were raised in. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/109 "2011-08-25T15:31:44Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > But hardly non-traditional. I understand that in a lot of farming households, then men ate first, as they had spent the day out in the fields working up a huge appetite. The womens folk had it easy, spending the day indoors doing the easy chores, such as laundry, child-rearing, baking, cleaning, sewing, etc., so if they didn’t get to eat, no biggy. Doesn’t work that way around my farming community. The wives work in the same fields as the husbands, driving the same tractors, milking the same cows. Then they come in and fix dinner for everyone. The “womens folk” work harder than anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/110 "2011-08-25T15:36:11Z")
Leaving aside whatever Biblical justification there may be, I knew a woman who was the very happy sub in a dom/sub relationship. She was by no means intellectually or socially inferior. I don’t get the dynamic, but two consenting adults and all that. ETA: she made it clear that her relationship extended beyond sexual relations, and that her dom was the dom in all aspects of their life. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/111 "2011-08-25T15:45:42Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > The first point – we’ve established you prefer it. I’m asking why? I don’t know. Why do you prefer one particular flavor of ice cream over another? > [@](#): > > The second point gets a little creepy. If women are saying they don’t like to be led and don’t even know they like it…how do _you_ know what they like? Because I can observe their reactions. > [@](#): > > I mean, if I told you that deep down you’d prefer a strong, independent woman, you’d think that was obnoxious. Maybe I would think so, but if you consistently observed the girls I pursued and noticed such a pattern, then that’s reality. > [@](#): > > Why do you assume that? Assume what? > [@](#): > > No, because sexual attraction can’t be changed. I don’t think preference for a subordinate partner is nearly as fixed. What makes you think that? > [@](#): > > Sure, but teenagers have notoriously bad judgment. I’m not even talking about marriage. What if one of your daughters was going out with a guy pressuring her into sex, as teen boys are wont to do? How can you teach her to stand up to herself when you’re saying at the same time men should lead? The easiest thing to do would be to tell them that they have the right to say “no.” I do concede the possibility that I am increasing the chance that they will be pushed around in relationships. I kinda doubt it since my observation is that the girls who are the most promiscuous; the most abused; etc are from families which were female led. My observation is that girls from traditional families are less likely to be promiscuous; less likely to end up as single moms; etc. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/112 "2011-08-25T15:49:57Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The easiest thing to do would be to tell them that they have the right to say “no.” I do concede the possibility that I am increasing the chance that they will be pushed around in relationships. I kinda doubt it since my observation is that the girls who are the most promiscuous; the most abused; etc are from families which were female led. My observation is that girls from traditional families are less likely to be promiscuous; less likely to end up as single moms; etc. What a load of bullshit. According to my “observations”, the most “promiscuous” (or, for a less sexist term, “liberated”) girls in high school were the ones from 2-parent devoutly Christian families. So I guess my observations cancel yours out. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/113 "2011-08-25T15:55:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You seek out subservient women that you feel are inferior to yourself in intellect and judgement, No, I would be okay with a girl who was smarter than me. I would still insist on wearing the pants, so to speak. As far as subservient goes, that’s not entirely correct. Like a lot of guys I went through a “nice guy” phase where I treated (or tried to treat) girls as equals. And like most guys, I discovered that girls don’t respond very well to this treatment. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t take a genius to figure out what kind of household you were raised in. And what kind of household is that? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/114 "2011-08-25T15:57:56Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I don’t know. Why do you prefer one particular flavor of ice cream over another? Because vanilla is just vanilla, but _chocolate_ helps me sublimate my deep-rooted feelings of inadequacy and fear of a hostile world I can’t control. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/115 "2011-08-25T15:58:16Z")
[This is for Brazil84](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14181950#post14181950) ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/116 "2011-08-25T15:59:21Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > As far as subservient goes, that’s not entirely correct. Like a lot of guys I went through a “nice guy” phase where I treated (or tried to treat) girls as equals. And like most guys, I discovered that girls don’t respond very well to this treatment. Neither I nor any of my guy friends have had this experience. Quite the opposite. But then, we have relationships with women, not girls. You would remain dateless in the San Francisco Bay Area, I assure you. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/117 "2011-08-25T16:11:35Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Meh. There are all sorts of ways for people to organize their lives and have a marriage.\*\* If the OP’s friend’s wife is happy with their arrangement\*\*, then who am I to say she’s chosen “incorrectly”? She may do all the housework because she’s essentially a workaholic and a control freak–maybe the husband tried to help in the past and the wife got on his ass for not doing it right. . Indeed, but that’s a big IF, considering the following: > [@Incubus](#): > > Thing is, **whenever we visit** , his wife always seems **exasperated** , \*\*irritated \*\*at doing a thousand things while her husband is showing us some toy he bought. **She is EXTREMELY grateful when we help her** , and **very apologetic about any messes, dinner being late, etc.** > > [snip] > > He then shows us a funny (but graphically violent) show that his wife doesn’t want their kids watching. **She objects, but he just ignores her, creating this awkward tension**. After the show, is over he puts on more age apprpriate stuff. Then he decides to go to the toy store to get some collector toy while its on clearance before the store closes. His wife finally goes to get food but it turns out her her husband **had barely left any for her**. Fiancee and I offered to help clean up so she could put her kids to bed but she said its ok, thank you for offereing. This is not, on the face of it, a description of a happy woman. In particular, if she is a control freak who has banned her husband from helping out for not doing it right, why is she extremely grateful for offers of help? Why are offers of help necessary? Under this scenario, she should be running things the house the way she wants, and neither need nor be grateful for assistance with it. She’s apologetic for the mess - clearly, then, not actually happy with the situation. Why, based on that description, would you think she might be? Do you believe she was happy with the decision the husband made to keep watching the graphically violent show in front of the children? Do you think she was happy to be left with hardly any food? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/118 "2011-08-25T16:16:30Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Assume what? A huge male/female imbalance at the upper reaches of intelligence. > [@](#): > > What makes you think that? Because I think our experiences shape who we are in terms of who we choose as a partner. Look at girls who grow up in abusive families who as adult women choose abusive males as their own partners. Or men who conversely seek out people they view as weaker/vulnerable/better victims. > [@](#): > > The easiest thing to do would be to tell them that they have the right to say “no.” I do concede the possibility that I am increasing the chance that they will be pushed around in relationships. I kinda doubt it since my observation is that the girls who are the most promiscuous; the most abused; etc are from families which were female led. My observation is that girls from traditional families are less likely to be promiscuous; less likely to end up as single moms; etc. You can tell them they can say no, but you’re showing them that in a relationship men have the final, ultimate say. I do think it’s odd that you’re equating “having sex” with promiscuity, though. Most teenagers and young people will have sex – do you think they’re all promiscuous? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/119 "2011-08-25T16:16:43Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Another thing to keep in mind is that girls (or women if you prefer) are frequently pretty lousy at assessing what they are attracted to in men. It’s like the old story of the girl who says she wants a “nice” guy but turns around and dates men who are jerks. Perhaps these stories are a bit exaggerated, but I do think there is a significant element of truth in them. A wife that thinks she’s marrying a “nice guy” but ends up with an abusive jerk? Yeah, I’m sure there’s some “significant element of truth” there. Unfortunately you’re the one providing the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926/120 "2011-08-25T16:19:58Z")
You are accepting one biased reporter’s account as the absolute objective truth. No response to each of your individual questions is necessary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblical-marrages-are-people-really-okay-with-this/593926.md?page=7)