# Biblically-approved wrongdoings **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2010, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805 "2010-01-21T05:28:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/41 "2010-01-25T17:31:16Z")
Possibly killing ones parents ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/42 "2010-01-25T19:03:48Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It’s clearly not written by someone with any knowledge of the history of the times. It’s more snark than content. > > Example, the analysis of Onan: … > > Point being, that in order to critique an ancient text, you gotta have the first clue as to what it actually says and the context. Well, okay, the author screws up here and elsewhere. Not the best site to point to. In the future I’ll probably link to individual articles by Farrell Till. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/43 "2010-01-25T19:53:20Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I recall some passage or other in the Bible where the Hebrew men were instructed to lie in wait for maidens of another tribe to come down to bathe? Get water? I disremember. At any rate, it was OK for the Hebrews to capture and rape these maidens and make them their wives. > > In fact, rape is generally OK, if it’s against women of another tribe, and done with the intent to make her a wife or concubine of a good Hebrew man, so that he can have kids, or more kids. In Biblical times, rape was considered to be a crime of property–theft of a Hebrew man’s right to control the sexuality of his wife and unmarried daughters. “Rape” as we know it did not exist. Please note that I’m not saying they weren’t full of shit on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/44 "2010-01-25T20:00:37Z")
> [@Wilbo523](#): > > I think you are referring to the legend of the Sabine women. It is part of Roman history. I’m unaware of a similar story in the Bible. The legend of the rape of the Sabine women, was popularized culturally in the Broadway play, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. I think what Lynn may be thinking of is this: [QUOTE=Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (King James Version)] 1. When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 2. And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 3. Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; 4. And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. 5. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her. [/QUOTE] [There are those who do not consider this rape.](http://www.utoronto.ca/wjudaism/journal/vol1n1/v1n1elma.htm)The technical term for such commentators is _contemptible fuckwits who would be well-served by a vigorous ass-kicking, delivered one should hope by Xena, or possibly that blonde vampire slayer chick. Actually any strong woman would do._ ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/45 "2010-01-25T23:44:26Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I think what Lynn may be thinking of is this: > > [There are those who do not consider this rape.](http://www.utoronto.ca/wjudaism/journal/vol1n1/v1n1elma.htm)The technical term for such commentators is _contemptible fuckwits who would be well-served by a vigorous ass-kicking, delivered one should hope by Xena, or possibly that blonde vampire slayer chick. Actually any strong woman would do._ As so often in the OT, the precepts have to be seen against the background of a very nasty bronze/iron age reality; generally, victors in war could (and did) do anything they wanted to captives. Imposing rules on the process is, basically, a step up from having no rules; at least according to this, you weren’t allowed to simply rape the person on the spot and sell her for a slave or prostitute if you didn’t like her. Naturally, sanctioning the rape and forced marriage of war captives sounds harsh, immoral and pimitive to us, but the alternative at the time wasn’t a modern, liberal system of human rights for captives - it was rape, murder and/or slavery. (Of course that raises the question of whether these rules were ever actually obeyed. There is no evidence either way but my guess is that they were more _hopeful_ than anything, like most pre-modern or even modern attempts to reign in wartime violence to acceptable minimums). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/46 "2010-01-25T23:59:51Z")
Doesn’t defending these things as being normal in their historical/cultural context simply concde the point that the books of the Bible are human creations, not Divine ones. Wouldn’t God be able to rise above historical/cultural context? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/47 "2010-01-26T00:01:21Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > As so often in the OT, the precepts have to be seen against the background of a very nasty bronze/iron age reality; generally, victors in war could (and did) do anything they wanted to captives. Imposing rules on the process is, basically, a step up from having no rules; at least according to this, you weren’t allowed to simply rape the person on the spot and sell her for a slave or prostitute if you didn’t like her. > > Naturally, sanctioning the rape and forced marriage of war captives sounds harsh, immoral and pimitive to us, but the alternative at the time wasn’t a modern, liberal system of human rights for captives - it was rape, murder and/or slavery. > > (Of course that raises the question of whether these rules were ever actually obeyed. There is no evidence either way but my guess is that they were more _hopeful_ than anything, like most pre-modern or even modern attempts to reign in wartime violence to acceptable minimums). I’m not sure how to respond to this, but that’s never stopped me before. The first thing that occurs to me is that, of course, the Hebrew conquest fo Canaan about as historical as Herakles’ conquest of the Amazons; both that narrative and that of the Exodus were written long after the time they purport to chronicle and serve as a unifying myth for the Canaanite tribes who evolved into the Jewish people. Thus there’s hardly any point in debating whether the Israelites acted morally or immorally in their conquest of Canaan; it’s kind of like debating whether Herakles was an asshole who does not deserve to be glorified by Kevin Sorbo. But some people take these stories as literally true. That, I think, is perilous, and does require that others point out that the values expressed in some parts of the cycle are repugnant and deserve only scorn (just as the values expressed in other parts of the cycle are praiseworthy and merit emulation). So yes, I will point out that the strictures and commands in the verses I quoted are pretty much equivalent to rape by civilized standards. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/48 "2010-01-26T00:04:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Doesn’t defending these things as being normal in their historical/cultural context simply concde the point that the books of the Bible are human creations, not Divine ones. Wouldn’t God be able to rise above historical/cultural context? Stop being smarter and more concise than me, Dio. It’s annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/49 "2010-01-26T00:12:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Doesn’t defending these things as being normal in their historical/cultural context simply concde the point that the books of the Bible are human creations, not Divine ones. Wouldn’t God be able to rise above historical/cultural context? Well, of course they are human creations. I’m not a theist. I’m merely pointing out that it makes no sense to charge the OT with immorality. In its way, it was an attempt to _redress_ existing immorality; naturally, it is not as morally, ethically or philosophically evolved as the current consensus - which is in no small part _derived_ from it, but which, by virtue of greater sophistication, transcends it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/50 "2010-01-26T00:17:41Z")
Rather than saying the Bible should be condemned as “immoral,” I would just say that it’s all but impossible to argue for it as a reliable moral _guide_. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/51 "2010-01-26T00:19:59Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > But some people take these stories as literally true. That, I think, is perilous, and does require that others point out that the values expressed in some parts of the cycle are repugnant and deserve only scorn (just as the values expressed in other parts of the cycle are praiseworthy and merit emulation). So yes, I will point out that the strictures and commands in the verses I quoted are pretty much equivalent to rape by civilized standards. Those who believe in the literal truth of the Bible are probably unreachable by such tactics. Certainly, the verses are equivalent to rape by modern, civilized standards. Anyone who literally attempted to apply them today would be guilty, no question. For the vast majority of believers who are not literalists, I suspect your attack would fall flat, for the reasons outlined. The Bible is not encouraging rape; rather, it is attempting, in a hesitant and limited way, to grope towards the notion that the losers in war have _some_ rights - you may rape, but only by following the rules, which impose all sorts of safeguards. Still horrible, but less so that the situation that would, without the OT, be in place. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/52 "2010-01-26T00:21:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Rather than saying the Bible should be condemned as “immoral,” I would just say that it’s all but impossible to argue for it as a reliable moral _guide_. Sure there is. It’s called _cherry-picking_. 😃 > [@Malthus](#): > > Those who believe in the literal truth of the Bible are probably unreachable by such tactics. Yes, but I enjoy making such persons uncomfortable, and for some stupid reason punching them is illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/53 "2010-01-26T00:25:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Rather than saying the Bible should be condemned as “immoral,” I would just say that it’s all but impossible to argue for it as a reliable moral _guide_. For one, it does not speak with one “voice”, but with many. That does not mean that there are no useful lessons to be derived from an intelligent, critical reading of the text. Way I look at it is that it forms a starting-point in time for the analysis of Western morality. It is in its own way the partial, encapsulated account of a people groping towards the _notion_ of morality - starting with very primitive beginnings, a nomadic tribe’s duties towards a rather nasty tribal diety. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/54 "2010-01-26T01:17:56Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Yes, but I enjoy making such persons uncomfortable, and for some stupid reason punching them is illegal. You’re not thinking this through-we’re not asking whether certain actions are legal or not, we’re asking if you can justify these actions _using the Bible_. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/55 "2010-01-26T01:30:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You’re not thinking this through-we’re not asking whether certain actions are legal or not, we’re asking if you can justify these actions _using the Bible_. I’m pretty sure you can use the bible to justify punching somebody. First, assume they’re an idolator… ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/56 "2010-01-26T01:34:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You’re not thinking this through-we’re not asking whether certain actions are legal or not, we’re asking if you can justify these actions _using the Bible_. Fool of a Took, blah blah blah. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/57 "2010-01-26T09:12:11Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m not sure how to respond to this, but that’s never stopped me before. OT : this is a beautiful line. Mind if I make a sig out of it ? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/58 "2010-01-26T15:26:21Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > OT : this is a beautiful line. Mind if I make a sig out of it ? Feel free. It’s not like 14% of my wisecracks aren’t stolen in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/59 "2010-01-26T15:42:44Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Feel free. It’s not like 14% of my wisecracks aren’t stolen in the first place. It’s not the stealing of quotes that bugs me-it’s the fact that you make up 38.7% of your statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805/60 "2010-01-26T15:54:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s not the stealing of quotes that bugs me-it’s the fact that you make up 38.7% of your statistics. That is a filthy lie. I make up well over 56% of my statistics. The usual threats. I think it’s ravenous otters this week. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-approved-wrongdoings/525805.md?page=4)