# Biblically sophisticated Christians: how many are there in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564 "2010-04-27T21:19:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lurking\_guest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@lurking\_guest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurking_guest)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/41 "2010-04-29T07:11:12Z")
A “Christian.” What the **hell** is that, anymore? Do Christians really believe in “The Holy Spirit.” That Voice that speaks Truth? Have they EVER believed in this Power outside of their own Denomination and whatever an “Authority” told them to believe? Pentecost. Look it up. Believe it? You don’t? You do? It’s all a bunch of mystical, magical bullshit? You ‘know’ or, you do NOT ‘know’ Christ. "Pray the ‘Prayer’ and you will be “Saved”…bullshit. The ‘Backing-and-Forthing’ about ‘Biblical Scholarship’ and who hangs human intelligence on what seems to be nothing more than ‘wishful thinking’ - vs. the really great minds of rational thought (Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens)…gaaahhhhhh ACTS In the Bible. After all of those people experienced this, what did they do? After being ‘touched’ by the Holy Spirit? They “…sold everything…” and threw their ‘lot’ into a socialist understanding of Life. I fully realize how stupid this seems to Dopers and Wall Street marketers… But the FIRST CHRISTIANS were obsessed with knowing that we are all One. It didn’t last long. (Goddamnit) But the example is there. What Christ ‘wrought’ has echoed down the history of Time. We **are** our Brothers (and Sisters) Keepers. Let’s back off a step from “…holding all things in common…” in deference to the Capatilists… So what is YOUR (Christian) solution? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/42 "2010-04-29T07:17:13Z")
As free verse poetry, this is pretty decent. As an attempt to make a point, however… > [@lurking\_guest](#): > > A “Christian.” What the **hell** is that, anymore? > > Do Christians really believe in “The Holy Spirit.” That Voice that speaks Truth? > > Have they EVER believed in this Power outside of their own Denomination and whatever an “Authority” told them to believe? > > Pentecost. > > Look it up. > > Believe it? > You don’t? > > You do? > > It’s all a bunch of mystical, magical bullshit? > > You ‘know’ or, you do NOT ‘know’ Christ. > > "Pray the ‘Prayer’ and you will be “Saved”…bullshit. > > The ‘Backing-and-Forthing’ about ‘Biblical Scholarship’ and who hangs human intelligence on what seems to be nothing more than ‘wishful thinking’ - vs. the really great minds of rational thought (Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens)…gaaahhhhhh > > ACTS > > In the Bible. > > After all of those people experienced this, what did they do? After being ‘touched’ by the Holy Spirit? > > They “…sold everything…” and threw their ‘lot’ into a socialist understanding of Life. > > I fully realize how stupid this seems to Dopers and Wall Street marketers… > > But the FIRST CHRISTIANS were obsessed with knowing that we are all One. > > It didn’t last long. > > (Goddamnit) > > But the example is there. > > What Christ ‘wrought’ has echoed down the history of Time. > > We **are** our Brothers (and Sisters) Keepers. > > Let’s back off a step from “…holding all things in common…” in deference to the Capatilists… > > So what is YOUR (Christian) solution? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/43 "2010-04-29T11:53:05Z")
> [@Hold\_Fast](#): > > Ha ah, the common atheist respose of “When in doubt, deny all terms and definitions.” The only reason you feel you can justify the idea that you dont “believe” in atheism is because you don’t subscribe to the idea that there is a supernatural world. Surely, athiesm is set apart from most other beliefs, because it goes so far in the other direction of everything else, which is essentially religion. Yet, whether you like it or not, this is what you **believe** ; you \*\*believe \*\*that you don’t need to believe. > > The whole idea is a contradiction in itself, athiests just think a bit too hard about it and claim then don’t believe in anything. If “ignorance is bliss” is your policy, then you should perhaps try to think a bit harder about your outlook on life. > > And seeing as how probably about 70%(and thats a conservative measure) of all humans that have ever existed believe in dieties, even if we pretend for a second that atheism is true, you would not be in the natural state of mind and reason. Clearly the natural state is to believe that there is some meaning to life. It is a matter of belief not fact. If one wants to believe they do, what ever one reads ,or is taught, or even from one’s own mind, it can be proven to be just human thinking, not of God. One believes in a human idea of what they think God is,said or did. In such a case one could argue the Koran is directly dictated by an angel of God to Muhammad. A lot depends on what culture one was born into. The truth cannot contradict it self as the Bble seems to do. If people’s beliefs help them to be a better person and do not use it to harm others then more power to them. But the many different translations of the Bible seem to cause desention and that is one reason why there are so many sects of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/44 "2010-04-29T12:50:30Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It is a matter of belief not fact. If one wants to believe they do, what ever one reads ,or is taught, or even from one’s own mind,\*\*\* it can be proven to be just human thinking, not of God. \*\*\*One believes in a human idea of what they think God is,said or did. In such a case one could argue the Koran is directly dictated by an angel of God to Muhammad. A lot depends on what culture one was born into. > > The truth cannot contradict it self as the Bble seems to do. If people’s beliefs help them to be a better person and do not use it to harm others then more power to them. But the many different translations of the Bible seem to cause desention and that is one reason why there are so many sects of Christianity. _ **highlighting mine** _ Ok, I’m game. Prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/45 "2010-04-29T13:30:14Z")
> [@lurking\_guest](#): > > the FIRST CHRISTIANS were obsessed with knowing that we are all One. > > It didn’t last long. > > (Goddamnit) There is still [Dr. Bronner!](http://www.drbronner.com/) [QUOTE=FriarTed] Lifeway is a publishing & marketing arm of the Southern Baptist Convention [/QUOTE] Thanks for that, though I do wish they’d’ve published their methodology on their website. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/46 "2010-04-29T13:43:33Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Ain’t irony grand? > > You do have a “non-belief” in God. You affirmatively believe that no God exists. You’re an Atheist also, **EinsteinsHund** just added one more to the list. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/47 "2010-04-29T13:45:30Z")
> [@Reepicheep](#): > > I attend a good sized Roman Catholic church, 3500 people. I attend a monthly adult bible study and a monthly woman’s group/bible study. I teach religious ed to 7 year olds, and while the catechism is part of class the bible plays a large part. > > **Lamar Mundane** I don’t doubt that your right for some Catholic churches, but in many of the ones I’ve attended the bible is stressed as something any Catholic serious about their faith should study not just read. But the RC’s don’t believe in [Biblical Inerrancy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy). Raised Catholic here in the Bible Belt, I know the difference. From the [Vatican website](http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm#109): > [@](#): > > In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words. > > In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. “For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression.” The strictly Fundamentalist Protestants believe that every word of the KJV is literally true. In practice, of course, they ignore some parts & emphasize others. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/48 "2010-04-29T14:04:25Z")
I go to two bible studies a week. One on the upcoming scripture reading and one on topics we pick and buy materials for. It is very popular in my area and I love the fellowship. I am not “Biblically sophistocated” and probably never will be. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/49 "2010-04-29T14:47:35Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Are you assuming here that the opposite of atheism is Christianity? The first time I read the NT was in grad school despite the fact that I had five years of religious instruction as a kid. I’m Jewish, so the Christian part of the Bible meant zippo to me. When I did read it, as an atheist, I found it borrrrrring and not at all inspiring. Boring except the wacko parts, that is. > > Given that the Bible is not history, I don’t think atheism requires an understanding of it - anymore than the rejection of any faith not your own requires detailed knowledge of that faith. On the other hand, if you do believe, it behooves you to understand what you believe in, including arguments against it. No, I wasn’t being specific enough. I was referring to the number of athiests who attack Chrisitanity (or any faith) without knowledge that goes beyond a characature of that belief system. I don’t think Atheists have an obligation to understand Christianity at all - unless they go about writing books/ making posts attacking it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/50 "2010-04-29T16:43:11Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > If my beliefs were based on logic, reason, science, historical evidence – anything that you could really argue about, then I should understand the arguments against it – or at least be familiar with the arguments. > > But you know that’s not why I believe. I believe because I have no choice not to. > > It’s possible that I might find that two weeks from now the reverse is true: I won’t be able to choose to believe again. That is the most horrible thought that I can imagine. > > A well-written scene in a recent television show refreshed my memory on one of the reasons that I love Walt Whitman. (I didn’t expect to hear this one coming from a meth lab.) It does speak to the value of things that are ethereal: > > [When I Heard the Learned Astronomer](http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/16083) by Walt Whitman I don’t think our positions are contradictory. I didn’t say you shouldn’t believe, just that you might believe while knowing reasons not to, not in ignorance of the reasons. For instance, if someone found he had to believe that the Red Sox are the greatest team in the history of baseball, they should believe knowing the curse of the Bambino, not in ignorance of the drought. For an excellent example in the area of romance, see [She’s My Girl](http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/She's-My-Girl-lyrics-Tom-Lehrer/185BC983DAF3A60848256A7D0024FE5A) by Tom Lehrer. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/51 "2010-04-29T16:46:16Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > However I have the sneaking suspicion that this ‘error in logic’ has a certain ‘Shawn of the Dead’ quality to it. > > It just won’t stay dead. That’s because certain theists keep digging it up. And let me say, it is beginning to stink. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/52 "2010-04-29T16:53:36Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > No, I wasn’t being specific enough. I was referring to the number of athiests who attack Chrisitanity (or any faith) without knowledge that goes beyond a characature of that belief system. I don’t think Atheists have an obligation to understand Christianity at all - unless they go about writing books/ making posts attacking it. It depends on what is being attacked. If you are attacking Christianity for getting the Messianic prophecies wrong you don’t need to understand the intricacies of transubstantiation. Johnny Carson used to say that if you buy the premise, you buy the bit. If we don’t buy the premise of Christianity we can more or less laugh off the intricacies developed over almost 2,000 years - and I don’t see anything wrong with that. But I do agree that if you talk about the details, you should understand what something like Immaculate Conception actually means. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/53 "2010-04-29T17:00:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > That’s because certain theists keep digging it up. And let me say, it is beginning to stink. Well someone has to answer the Christian posts Voyager… I don’t mind the athiests Posts and stay right out of them because I can’t comment on something I have no understanding of. Why can’t we all just get along? 🙂 Just like that old song, “There arn’t no good guys, there arn’t no bad guys, theres just you and me and we just disagree”. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/54 "2010-04-29T17:23:46Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > But the RC’s don’t believe in [Biblical Inerrancy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy). Raised Catholic here in the Bible Belt, I know the difference. From the [Vatican website](http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm#109): > > **The strictly Fundamentalist Protestants believe that every word of the KJV is literally true.** In practice, of course, they ignore some parts & emphasize others. (Bolding mine.) Does anybody _really_ claim to believe this? I’ve heard people accuse _other_ people of being Biblical literalists, as you’ve done here, but I can’t recall seeing anybody claim that they themselves believe that everything in the Bible ought to be taken literally—that there are no metaphors or figures of speech—and I suspect it’s something of a straw man. Does anyone really claim that, as in Psalm 18:2, God is a literal rock or tower? > [@](#): > > The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. Or that rivers have hands to clap, as in Psalm 98:8? > [@](#): > > Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together. Biblical inerrancy is not the same thing as Biblical literalism. What the inerrantists claim (if I understand correctly) is that there is nothing in the Bible that, when taken in the sense that it was meant to be understood, is false or mistaken—not that everything was meant to be taken in a literal sense. An inerrantist would say that everything _that was intended by the original authors/Author to be taken literally_ is literally true. I think that a lot of the time when people talk about the Bible being literally true, what they’re really talking about is it being historically true. That is, the issue is whether the events described in the Bible actually occured as written, as opposed to being fiction, legend, parable, allegory, or something like that. And, if I understand correctly, _some_ Biblical inerrantists believe that all narratives in the Bible are to be taken as describing things that actually occured, but others have no problem believing that some of them were never meant as historical. I find it interesting that even “every word is literally true” is a figure of speech that shouldn’t be understood literally, since the truth or meaning doesn’t reside at the level of individual words. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/55 "2010-04-29T18:08:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It depends on what is being attacked. If you are attacking Christianity for getting the Messianic prophecies wrong you don’t need to understand the intricacies of transubstantiation. Johnny Carson used to say that if you buy the premise, you buy the bit. If we don’t buy the premise of Christianity we can more or less laugh off the intricacies developed over almost 2,000 years - and I don’t see anything wrong with that. But I do agree that if you talk about the details, you should understand what something like Immaculate Conception actually means. I think we’re in agreement. I had in mind athiests who mock, say, the Atonement or the concept of Hell when what they’re really attacking are popular (mis-)understandings of those concepts and not the real theological doctrines, which are usually quite complex. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/56 "2010-04-30T02:33:34Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > You’re an Atheist also, **EinsteinsHund** just added one more to the list. Huh? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/57 "2010-04-30T02:34:52Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > That’s because certain theists keep digging it up. And let me say, it is beginning to stink. You’re close… The theists are calling them on it. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/58 "2010-04-30T02:58:55Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Huh? From your statement to **EinsteinsHund** I assumed you believed in a god, if you do surely you don’t believe in the millions worshiped now and in the past. If you don’t then nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/59 "2010-04-30T12:57:07Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > _ **highlighting mine** _ > > Ok, I’m game. > > Prove it. The proof is in the pudding! Humans wrote the Bible, said it was inspired,called it the word of God. Prove to me that the person’s who wrote it talked to God! That is a fact. People believed the person or persons who told them it was so. There is no Proof of a historical Moses and many things are contradictory. Now if human’s are God as the psalmist says, then that is God speaking, but not a supreme being. Why would a supreme being inspire things that are not true and couldn’t or didn’t happen, such as: Jesus saying he would return in glory with his angels while some of them standing there were still alive? Why would this same supreme bieng inspire contradictory translations. How do you know if Muhammed wasn’t inspired and the Koran is not the word of God? The New Testement was called inspired by the Bishops of the Catholic and Orthodox church at the council called by Constantine to have a unified Christian doctrine. They decided what was inspired and what wasn’t. Just read History and you will find the proof you are looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564/60 "2010-04-30T14:11:22Z")
**monavis** , you’re an example of what I was talking about before. You’re greatly oversimplifying and I don’t think you really have a deep enough understanding of what you’re talking about. > [@](#): > > Humans wrote the Bible, said it was inspired,called it the word of God. Prove to me that the person’s who wrote it talked to God! That is a fact. Obviously we can’t prove it. What are you calling “a fact”? The part about humans writing it? Sure. Is it a fact that they weren’t divinely inspired? There’s no way to prove that either way. > [@](#): > > There is no Proof of a historical Moses and many things are contradictory. Okay, let’s go with that. Moses is mythological and there are contradictions in the Bible. So what? What exactly does that invalidate? > [@](#): > > Now if human’s are God as the psalmist says, then that is God speaking, but not a supreme being. What Psalm are you talking about? I don’t recall one that says humans are God. > [@](#): > > Why would a supreme being inspire things that are not true and couldn’t or didn’t happen, such as: Jesus saying he would return in glory with his angels while some of them standing there were still alive? Please cite where Jesus said that. > [@](#): > > Why would this same supreme bieng inspire contradictory translations. Most Christians don’t consider translations to be inspired; only the original manuscripts. There are small fringe groups who consier the KJV to be the “inspired” English translation, but they’re… small and fringe. > [@](#): > > How do you know if Muhammed wasn’t inspired and the Koran is not the word of God? I don’t know that. Maybe they were/are inspired, in whole or in part. > [@](#): > > The New Testement was called inspired by the Bishops of the Catholic and Orthodox church at the council called by Constantine to have a unified Christian doctrine. They decided what was inspired and what wasn’t. It sound like you are the one who needs to read up on the Council of Nicea. First, the Catholic/Orthodox split hadn’t occurred yet. Second, most of the NT texts were considered “inspired” long before that council met – what the Council did was agree on which texts would be included in the canonical New Testament. They also agreed on a shared creed (the Nicene Creed) as a response to common heresies that were floating about. What do you find so insidious about this council? > [@](#): > > Just read History and you will find the proof you are looking for. Why should he have to? You said you had proof (of what, I’m not sure) but you haven’t demonstrated it here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biblically-sophisticated-christians-how-many-are-there-in-the-us/537564.md?page=4)