# Bicycle commuters, please hon't wear black. And some lights'd be nice. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 14, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925 "2010-02-14T03:49:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/61 "2010-02-17T16:20:49Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Steer… around? Potholes are made to fly over, Ivan. FLY LIKE A BIRD! You’ve not seen some of the potholes on UK roads! I could bunny hop them, I suppose, but it’d be a bad place to have a bit of a wobble upon landing. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/62 "2010-02-17T16:27:35Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Hey, I read it all. And what it seems to say is that even in an area where cycling is permitted, you still have 64% of cycling accidents occuring at intersections. **Sounds to me like it is the drivers who are the problem in that neighbourhood, then.** Or cyclists who don’t follow traffic laws as they’re supposed to. ---
**Author:** ![Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d9b06d/32.png) [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichini_Sanshigo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/63 "2010-02-17T16:29:49Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Not bike-related, but my favorite potential Darwin sighting of this winter was a runner, running in a main street, at about 5:30 p.m. - right in rush hour, running against traffic, clad entirely in black from head to toe. :rolleyes: Um, if you’re walking or running in the street you are supposed to go against traffic. But yeah, as a sometimes-street runner myself, I avoid doing so during rush hour and try to stick to side streets. And for people who want _pedestrians_ to not wear black, do you not have headlights? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/64 "2010-02-17T16:31:08Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Or cyclists who don’t follow traffic laws as they’re supposed to. Do you stop everyone else using automobiles because a “significant” number don’t follow all traffic laws? I think the answer you are looking for is “No!” ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/65 "2010-02-17T17:11:15Z")
> [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](#): > > Um, if you’re walking or running in the street you are supposed to go against traffic. But yeah, as a sometimes-street runner myself, I avoid doing so during rush hour and try to stick to side streets. > > And for people who want _pedestrians_ to not wear black, do you not have headlights? 1. Read my first link. They don’t address running against traffic, but apparently riding against traffic is considerably MORE dangerous. Which goes against conventional wisdom and what we were taught as kids. 2. In Chicago Milwaukee Ave is a diagonal street, meaning it doesn’t run N-S or E-W, so most streets meet it at an angle. It also has a surprisingly well-used bike lane, considering our recent snow. When I head west on a street that meets Milwaukee and plan to turn right my headlights are headed west, but traffic, including bikes, is coming from the southeast. My headlights are completely out of the equation. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/66 "2010-02-17T18:05:21Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Do you stop everyone else using automobiles because a “significant” number don’t follow all traffic laws? I think the answer you are looking for is “No!” That makes no sense. Just because a majority of accidents happen at an intersection does nor necessarily mean it’s always the driver’s fault. I see far too many cyclists who ignore traffic laws to always assume it’s the driver’s fault. And this comes from the viewpoint of riding for about 17 years. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/67 "2010-02-17T18:14:56Z")
> [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](#): > > Um, if you’re walking or running in the street you are supposed to go against traffic. But yeah, as a sometimes-street runner myself, I avoid doing so during rush hour and try to stick to side streets. > > And for people who want _pedestrians_ to not wear black, do you not have headlights? Yeah - I’ve often heard this. But this was an example of what we have discussed here countless times, a runner choosing to run on the street instead of the available sidewalk (yeah, I know - knees, shovelling, etc.). And making that choice, he picked the busiest street in the area, at the busiest time of day, wearing the least visible clothes he could imagine. I walk home from the train every day in an area that has little pedestrian traffic, and think most drivers simply do not think of pedestrians. At intersections the habit is to pull into the marked crosswalks instead of stopping before them. As a pedestrian, I am always on the lookout for such inattentive drivers. I have thought abut getting one of those flashing LED lights to attach to my briefcase handle, to make me more visible during the dark winter months. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/68 "2010-02-17T19:52:25Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > That makes no sense. Just because a majority of accidents happen at an intersection does nor necessarily mean it’s always the driver’s fault. I see far too many cyclists who ignore traffic laws to always assume it’s the driver’s fault. And this comes from the viewpoint of riding for about 17 years. It makes complete sense to me. I’m agreeing that there might be cyclists who are responsible for accidents at intersections, but barring ALL cyclists on the basis of such idiots would be like barring everyone from using a specific road because there was a lot of speeding offenses committed on it. Is that any more intelligible? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/69 "2010-02-17T20:34:52Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’m agreeing that there might be cyclists who are responsible for accidents at intersections, but barring ALL cyclists on the basis of such idiots would be like barring everyone from using a specific road because there was a lot of speeding offenses committed on it. > > Is that any more intelligible? Not really - I have no idea what you’re trying to say. Why are you talking about “cyclists who are responsible for accidents”? Nobody is talking about that. The issue is how to avoid being hit _by accident_. A cyclist on the roadway is more likely to be noticed (by car drivers) than a cyclist on the sidewalk. This is why it’s safer for you to ride on the roadway than on the sidewalk. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/70 "2010-02-17T20:43:23Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > You’ve not seen some of the potholes on UK roads! I could bunny hop them, I suppose, but it’d be a bad place to have a bit of a wobble upon landing. 🙂 Yeah, actually, I have. Possibly the first mountain bike in England, mind you. Quite fun, going down an old railroad track and watching every single ten-speed in the pack blow their tubes at once. Potholes? Where I’m going, I don’t even have roads. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/71 "2010-02-17T21:03:47Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Not really - I have no idea what you’re trying to say. Why are you talking about “cyclists who are responsible for accidents”? Nobody is talking about that. The issue is how to avoid being hit _by accident_. A cyclist on the roadway is more likely to be noticed (by car drivers) than a cyclist on the sidewalk. This is why it’s safer for you to ride on the roadway than on the sidewalk. People are trying to say that it is foolish and irresponsible users of bicycles that are responsible for a lot of accidents between them and motor vehicles - true, or not? I haven’t seen any evidence yet that proves cyclists are more at fault than other vehicle users. In the current UK driving test there is a section called The Hazard Perception Test, and part of its remit is to make sure drivers are paying attention to what is happening **off** the road. If drivers paid enough attention to this aspect of driving, I’d wager half of these accidents, if not more, would never occur. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/72 "2010-02-17T21:14:21Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > People are trying to say that it is foolish and irresponsible users of bicycles that are responsible for a lot of accidents between them and motor vehicles - true, or not? I can’t speak for other people, but I’ve never said or thought that. If a car driver hits a cyclist on the intersection, the car driver is generally “at fault” and therefore “responsible” for the accident. On the other hand, there are things cyclists can do to reduce the chance of such incidents. One of those things, on most roads, is to ride on the roadway rather than the sidewalk. Just because you’re not at fault, that doesn’t mean you were powerless to prevent it. For example, if I walked through a bad neighborhood and got mugged, of course I’m not “at fault” for that mugging. But perhaps I could have prevented the incident by choosing another street. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/73 "2010-02-18T03:38:08Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I don’t know how this got into all of this other stuff, but all that aside, why wouldn’t you have lights and bright clothing on your personage after dark? Quote (from a bike messenger type Critical Mass attendee fucktard) "T_hey can’t hit what they can’t see!"_. In other words, he believes that most drivers actually actively try to hit cyclists and thus riding blackout is safer. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/74 "2010-02-18T04:51:04Z")
> [@Ichini\_Sanshigo](#): > > And for people who want _pedestrians_ to not wear black, do you not have headlights? Yes, of course I do, but I find that people wearing dark clothing at night blend into the darkness of the landscape amazingly well till you’re damn near on top of them. Even a light-colored top can be hard to see until you’re unnervingly close. Of course, I do most of my driving in semi-rural areas with few and far between street lights, or none at all. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/75 "2010-02-18T06:28:24Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > 1. Read my first link. They don’t address running against traffic, but apparently riding against traffic is considerably MORE dangerous. Which goes against conventional wisdom and what we were taught as kids. Avid bicyclist and a guy that hit a wrong way rider once. So I am in a gas station that is on an east-west street just east of an intersection. I have finished filling up and am going to turn right (east) as I leave the station. I look both ways before I get to the sidewalk. No pedestrians, no bikes, no strollers. My right turn signal is on. I roll forward across the sidewalk until the front of my truck is about even with the left side of the car that is parallel parked next to the driveway. Now since I am turning right, and all the traffic I should need to concerned with is west of me (to my left), I am looking left. Finally the light turns red, and traffic clears. As the last car passes, I take my foot off the brake and hear a crunch. I look forward to see our future Darwin award winner going down to the ground in front of my vehicle. Oh Shit! Thank OG I was a bit concerned about someone making a right off of the North South street, so I took my take off slow. If I had nailed the gas, I would have gone over the guy. Anyway this idjit realized that he had fucked up, got his bike and before I could even ask if he was OK, rode off. ::: Whew::: Since then I have given much thought to the issue of riding against traffic flow. A car pulling out from a parallel parking space is also quite likely to cream a wrong way rider as the driver will be looking over his shoulder to see if traffic is clear. About runners in the street, and runners wearing black at night, my theory is that [jogging kills brain cells](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=273115). 😃 Plus riding on the sidewalk is stupid IMHO ---
**Author:** ![Girl\_From\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3da27b/32.png) [@Girl\_From\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girl_From_Mars)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/76 "2010-02-18T06:43:29Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > You mean like, _“Oh, wow! I’ve just spotted a whopping tumble-inducing pothole and need to steer around it - I hope that guy driving over the limit in the Beamer behind me knows what I’m going to do!”_ kind of predictable? That would be covered by my 3rd point - when in doubt remember it’s better to give way than be right and dead. Cycle defensively (always looking around to see what other traffic is doing) and be pragmatic\* - if there’s a dirty great BMW steaming up the right side of you and a pothole ahead, perhaps slowing down and letting the BMW get past before pulling out is in order - or indicate using your (lit/reflective) right arm that you are pulling out, checking to see that they have noticed this and then moving. \*Pragmatic being that all BMW drivers are assholes, and you should always expect them to do something dickish on the road. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/77 "2010-02-18T10:47:56Z")
[quote=“Randy\_Seltzer, post:7, topic:528925”] Sorry for the hijack, but in the interest of fighting ignorance, there are two myths here: 1. The Smart is not as Earth-friendly as many people think. My parents’ Smart gets about 35 mpg. A comparable Honda Civic hybrid gets about 50 mpg, a Toyota Prius gets about 55. The main benefit of the Smart isn’t its fuel efficiency; it’s its size and its novelty. Sorry, my 06 diesel VW Jetta gets a dependable 43 MPG, does not require any funktastic special fuel, or expensive batteries, is cheap to insure and has minimal maintenance costs [72K miles and only routine maintenance so far] and cost me $17K. Going by other VWs I have owned, I expect at least another 150K miles out of it. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925/78 "2010-02-18T14:22:53Z")
My philosophy on the matter is, ride like they get points if they hit you. Always keep aware. I can confirm, riding with traffic is better: you’re more predictable to the cars, drivers get antsy when they see something classified as ‘moving’ coming towards them. (peds don’t count as moving, they’re too slow.) You don’t want other drivers antsy. Driving on the sidewalk is just an excuse to wrack yourself up. Imagine being the only car among a hundred bicycles. Not to mention curb issues and uneven slab issues. Not worth it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicycle-commuters-please-hont-wear-black-and-some-lightsd-be-nice/528925.md?page=3)