# Bicyclists: What did I do wrong? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 31, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480 "2008-10-31T18:59:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/21 "2008-11-01T02:13:07Z")
> [@Malienation](#): > > Word. While we’re at it, let’s fume at drivers who unnecessarily stop for pedestrians (okay, me) who are just at the beginning of a crosswalk, even though there’s plenty of room for them to go and me to walk without breaking stride. :mad: By stopping, they engage in de facto pressure to get me to speed up so that they can go; if they had turned instead of stopped, I could have continued at my own pace. But no, they have to do me this alleged “favor”. :rolleyes: In some areas all traffic is supposed to stop once a pedestrian enters the crosswalk. What gets me are the drivers who stop when the pedestrian is waiting on the sidewalk for traffic to clear before crossing. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/22 "2008-11-01T03:29:59Z")
OK, I’m getting why this is tough for the bicyclist - he doesn’t know that I’m not going to be an asshole and suddenly cut him off, and the consequences of being wrong are grave. But I’m bemused by the people saying, “Just do what you would do if he was a car.” If I wanted to turn right into a driveway (not an intersection) and a car was coming up behind me on the right (so I must be in the left lane), I definitely would not just cut in front of him - I’d slow and wait for him to pass, with my right turn signal on so the people behind me would have a clue what I was up to. (Ideally, I’d be in the damn right lane in the first place so it wouldn’t even be a possible scenario.) That’s part of why I was so confused about what to do - because I thought I _was_ treating him like a car. ---
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/23 "2008-11-01T03:53:29Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > In some areas all traffic is supposed to stop once a pedestrian enters the crosswalk. > > What gets me are the drivers who stop when the pedestrian is waiting on the sidewalk for traffic to clear before crossing. In some states this is required, and in fact local police departments will occasionally run stings to catch people not complying. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/24 "2008-11-01T04:34:36Z")
> [@ENugent](#): > > OK, I’m getting why this is tough for the bicyclist - he doesn’t know that I’m not going to be an asshole and suddenly cut him off, and the consequences of being wrong are grave. But I’m bemused by the people saying, “Just do what you would do if he was a car.” If I wanted to turn right into a driveway (not an intersection) and a car was coming up behind me on the right (so I must be in the left lane), I definitely would not just cut in front of him - I’d slow and wait for him to pass, with my right turn signal on so the people behind me would have a clue what I was up to. (Ideally, I’d be in the damn right lane in the first place so it wouldn’t even be a possible scenario.) That’s part of why I was so confused about what to do - because I thought I _was_ treating him like a car. It’s really not accurate to say you should treat a cyclist like another car, but there’s no real comparison, and saying just treat us like cyclists obviously isn’t terribly useful. Thank you a thousand times for asking, though - the world is full of people who simply have no idea how to help a cyclist ride safely. An effect of this is that in order to be safe, a cyclist needs to basically assume that ever car driver doesn’t see them. As far as I’m aware, there has never been a car-vs-bicycle accident where the bicyclist won. Also, as a vaguely-related PSA: for the love of god, if you’re parallel parked, _please_ check your mirror for bicycles before opening your door. I just found out today that a guy in my father’s cycling club recently broke his neck riding - someone opened their door into him, he swerved, got clipped by the mirror on a passing bus, and was thrown head-first off his bike. A stupid accident that could have been prevented with a five-second wait (and I believe in some states it’s required by law, and if something like that happens, the door-opener is culpable). ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/25 "2008-11-01T06:02:47Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Typically, when a car is making ready to turn, as a cyclist you have a couple of courses of action, slow down and let the car turn and get clear from you path, go around the inside, or go around the outside, as you get closer to the car, you have to make a choice - you become more committed. It can be hard to judge how fast a cyclist is going when you’re driving. If you’re in the middle of the block you just drive past, no problem. But if you’re getting near the it’s definitely hard to tell. Most drivers planning to turn right would probably rather err on the side of stopping than run the risk, however small, of seeing a bicycle and its rider flying end over end across one’s hood. Getting ready to turn into a driveway in mid-block is similar. One can’t always judge exactly the time it takes to slow down and stop for a turn, or the distance of road you will have to cover to do that, in any given situation. Also, (IMO) properly indoctrinated drivers have a healthy dread of making a right turn hand getting run into by anything going straight through on the right, whether it’s a biker, or another car, or even a jogger. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/26 "2008-11-01T12:12:50Z")
When on my bike, I will never pass a car on the right if it has it’s right turn signal on, whether it’s moving or not. So if you’re ahead of me with your right turn signal on, I will pass you on the left. If there is not enough room, I will stop and wait for you to make your turn, wondering why you have not left me enough room to pass on your left. The longer I wait, the grouchier I will get about it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/27 "2008-11-01T12:44:27Z")
> [@ENugent](#): > > OK, I’m getting why this is tough for the bicyclist - he doesn’t know that I’m not going to be an asshole and suddenly cut him off, and the consequences of being wrong are grave. But I’m bemused by the people saying, “Just do what you would do if he was a car.” If I wanted to turn right into a driveway (not an intersection) and a car was coming up behind me on the right (so I must be in the left lane), I definitely would not just cut in front of him - I’d slow and wait for him to pass, with my right turn signal on so the people behind me would have a clue what I was up to. (Ideally, I’d be in the damn right lane in the first place so it wouldn’t even be a possible scenario.) That’s part of why I was so confused about what to do - because I thought I _was_ treating him like a car. Ok, that’s another thing you did wrong – describe the situation imprecisely. From your OP, I assumed you were in the right lane, and you saw a bike coming up that you assumed was going to try to get through between you and the curb. And you were not about to make a right turn, you were about to change lanes. Or, if you were about to make a right turn from the left lane, that’s a whole 'nother level of wrong that we can discuss more. But believe me, you would have got an entirely different set of answers had you made clear you were in the left lane when this happened. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/28 "2008-11-01T14:57:07Z")
> [@UncleRojelio](#): > > All of this leads to my Golden Rule of the Road: Just do what you are supposed to be doing. When driving, being overly polite is just going to piss everyone off. Stopping and waiting at odd places, waving other drivers in, not taking advantage of unprotected left turns or right on red rules just screw things up for everybody else. Being efficient, quick and smooth with your driving skills are the most polite things you can do for your fellow drivers ( cyclists included ). This. People making up their own rules under the guise of politeness is more likely to cause accidents than following the rules. That’s why the rules are what they are. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/29 "2008-11-01T15:04:33Z")
> [@](#): > > But I’m bemused by the people saying, “Just do what you would do if he was a car.” If I wanted to turn right into a driveway (not an intersection) and a car was coming up behind me on the right (so I must be in the left lane), I definitely would not just cut in front of him - **I’d slow and wait for him to pass** , with my right turn signal on so the people behind me would have a clue what I was up to. (My bolding.) That’s wrong too. If you’re in the left lane when you need to make a right turn, _you’ve already missed your turn_. Drive around the block and try again. In your OP, you and the bicyclist are in the _same lane_. It doesn’t matter that he’s a bicyclist, and over to the right of the lane. ETA: Maybe think of it as treating bicyclists the same as motorcyclists, instead of the same as cars? And yeah, you treat motorcyclists the same as cars, but now you’ve got two smaller steps (bike -\> motorcycle -\> car), instead of one larger jump (bike -\> car). ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/30 "2008-11-01T15:40:42Z")
I’m a little confused - were you in the right lane, or the second lane? If you were in the right lane, then you shouldn’t have expected a vehicle to pass you on your right. You wouldn’t wait for a car to pass on your right while you were in the right lane, would you? Treat a bike the same way. If you were in the second lane then you shouldn’t have been turning right from there, as **ZenBeam** said. Doesn’t matter if there’s any kind of vehicle in the right lane. if you were in the second lane and you were wanting to make a lane change, you should have waited a bit longer until you were further ahead of the bike. You’d do the same if there was a slower car on the right lane. Incidentally, this is why cyclists should take the lane and behave like cars. If you don’t behave like a car, it’s difficult for others to treat you like a car. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/31 "2008-11-01T16:36:47Z")
You should only make a right turn from the rightmost lane\* If you were in the left lane you were wrong. If you were in the right lane, one of two conditions existed. When you came up behind the bike you could have passed him and completed the turn without requiring him to slow down or stop. If this was the case, go ahead pass, and turn. Or there was not enough room for you to pass him, and make a right turn without causing him to slow down or stop. If this was the case, you should have stayed behind him, and then turned. From the [California Driver’s Handbook (PDF!)](http://www.dmv.ca.gov/top_nav/top_nav_pdf_link.htm) > [@](#): > > Drivers must: > > - look carefully for bicyclists > before opening doors next to > moving traffic or before turn- > ing right. > - safely merge toward the curb > or into the bike lane. > - **not overtake a bicyclist just > before making a right turn. > Merge first, then turn.** (bolding mine) I ride a bike though LA to work a couple of days a week, and I have to tell you, the OP actions would have either scared the hell our me or puzzled me to no end. Most likely the former. I would be very concerned that the driver was lost, and lost in thought, and then as soon as I got next to their car, would suddenly turn right, right into my bike. You don’t dent a door on a bike, bones get broken. \*Excludes intersections where signs/ lane marking permit such turns from more than one lane. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/32 "2008-11-01T16:49:00Z")
> [@ENugent](#): > > I was on my way to pick up my daughter from daycare, driving on downtown city streets. I turned on my right turn signal in plenty of time, checked my mirror, and saw a bicycle coming up on my right. So I stopped and waited for him to pass before making my turn into the driveway. Instead, he stopped and yelled an obscenity at me. :dubious: > > What was I supposed to have done? My default setting on a bike is “drivers can’t see me,” so when someone ahead is signaling that they’re about to turn toward the curb, I stop behind them (or check if its safe to pass them on the left, depending on how much space is available). I would never pass on the right in this case, because based on past observation, it would be begging to get crunched or doored. But your consideration is sincerely appreciated, and the guy was an ass for cursing you out. It might have been that he wasn’t paying attention and had to stop short (and assumed that you were at fault for stopping so suddenly in front of him), or that he was already pissed off and thinking people were out to get him, and was going to ascribe the worst motives to whatever you did. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/33 "2008-11-02T01:46:06Z")
> [@](#): > > You should not wait for him to pass you on the right, because that would be both illegal and dangerous for a cyclist. Instead, you should have turned slowly to the right, making sure that you could stop if necessary to avoid a collision with the cyclist (or anyone else). I agree, yet when I’ve done this, I’ve been followed by the cyclist, who pounded on my car and screamed obscenities at me. ---
**Author:** ![Rapier42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90db22/32.png) [@Rapier42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rapier42)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/34 "2008-11-02T02:26:42Z")
Another vote for “don’t expect him to pass you on the right”. That’s suicide for a cyclist. You have to make a judgement call regarding whether you can make the turn without cutting him off. But once he sees you in front of him with a turn signal on, he should be merging into traffic behind you and passing on the left as you make your turn anyway. He sounds like an asshole. You made the safest call you could on short notice, and I’ll join the rest of the cyclists in this thread by saying thanks. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/35 "2008-11-02T21:39:56Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Ok, that’s another thing you did wrong – describe the situation imprecisely. From your OP, I assumed you were in the right lane, and you saw a bike coming up that you assumed was going to try to get through between you and the curb. And you were not about to make a right turn, you were about to change lanes. Or, if you were about to make a right turn from the left lane, that’s a whole 'nother level of wrong that we can discuss more. > > But believe me, you would have got an entirely different set of answers had you made clear you were in the left lane when this happened. I was **not** in the left lane. I was saying that the only way I can construct an analogous “treat-the-bicyclist-like-a-car” is to assume that I was in the left lane. I was in the right lane, and the bicycle was on my right in a bicycle lane, coming up behind me as I slowed to turn into the driveway. That’s why I said he was “coming up on my right”. I see that I didn’t specify bike lane, but they have them everywhere here, so I forgot to specifically mention it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/36 "2008-11-02T21:57:04Z")
> [@ENugent](#): > > I was **not** in the left lane. I was saying that the only way I can construct an analogous “treat-the-bicyclist-like-a-car” is to assume that I was in the left lane. I was in the right lane, and the bicycle was on my right in a bicycle lane, coming up behind me as I slowed to turn into the driveway. That’s why I said he was “coming up on my right”. I see that I didn’t specify bike lane, but they have them everywhere here, so I forgot to specifically mention it. I apologize, but your writing style is confusing me: > [@](#): > > If I wanted to turn right into a driveway (not an intersection) and a car was coming up behind me on the right (so I must be in the left lane), I definitely would not just cut in front of him - I’d slow and wait for him to pass, with my right turn signal on so the people behind me would have a clue what I was up to. (Ideally, I’d be in the damn right lane in the first place so it wouldn’t even be a possible scenario.) That’s part of why I was so confused about what to do - because I thought I was treating him like a car. I read this that you were in the left lane, though IDEALLY you would be in the right lane. So, back to my first post – if you were in the right lane, what you did wrong was stop. ---
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/37 "2008-11-02T21:58:04Z")
> [@ENugent](#): > > I was **not** in the left lane. I was saying that the only way I can construct an analogous “treat-the-bicyclist-like-a-car” is to assume that I was in the left lane. I was in the right lane, and the bicycle was on my right in a bicycle lane, coming up behind me as I slowed to turn into the driveway. That’s why I said he was “coming up on my right”. I see that I didn’t specify bike lane, but they have them everywhere here, so I forgot to specifically mention it. I wonder if that’s causing some confusion here. In Seattle and Portland, and other large cities in the NW, there are usually bike lanes in the city. Those are for the bikes to use and are generally on the right hand side of the lane for cars. Therefore, if you are in the righthand lane, but need to turn into a driveway, there may be a bike lane on your right still. I’m not sure what the laws are in Oregon or Washington in this situation, but I’d bet they address the appropriate way to handle it. ---
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/38 "2008-11-02T22:00:56Z")
> [@whatami](#): > > I wonder if that’s causing some confusion here. In Seattle and Portland, and other large cities in the NW, there are usually bike lanes in the city. Those are for the bikes to use and are generally on the right hand side of the lane for cars. Therefore, if you are in the righthand lane, but need to turn into a driveway, there may be a bike lane on your right still. > > I’m not sure what the laws are in Oregon or Washington in this situation, but I’d bet they address the appropriate way to handle it. In fact, looking at the City of Portland website and a list of some laws, it appears to me that the OP did the correct thing if this had taken place in Portland. I’d bet Seattle laws are similar. [http://www.portlandonline.com/TRANSPORTATION/index.cfm?c=34814&a=58292](http://www.portlandonline.com/TRANSPORTATION/index.cfm?c=34814&a=58292) Bolding mine > [@](#): > > A major problem of drivers is the ability to see bicycles, especially at night. Sometimes they may be in the blind spot of your vehicle. When you approach a bicycle keep on the lookout and slow down. Give them plenty of room when passing and be prepared to stop suddenly. It is important to remember that bicyclists have the same rights and duties as drivers of motor vehicles, except those which obviously cannot apply to a bicycle rider. In addition, bicycle riders have some special rules to follow. To avoid conflict, drivers of motor vehicles need to know the rules: > > ``` > * Do not drive on a bicycle lane. You may cross a bicycle lane when turning or when entering or leaving an alley, private road or driveway. You may use a bicycle lane as part of an official duty, such as delivering mail. Farm equipment may briefly use a bicycle lane to let other traffic pass. > > ``` > > \*\* \* You must yield to bicycles in a bicycle lane or on a sidewalk before you turn across the lane or sidewalk.\*\* > \* You may not park any motorized vehicle on a bicycle path or lane. > \* You must yield to bicycle riders at intersections, the same as you do for other types of vehicles. > \* Do not crowd bicyclists. Wait for a clear stretch of road before passing a bicycle that is moving slower than your motor vehicle in a lane too narrow to share. Remember, the bicycle is a slow-moving vehicle and may require you to slow down. The greater the speed difference between you and a bicyclist, the more room you should allow when passing. > \* Do not honk at a bicyclist unless you have good cause to warn them you are close by. The loud noise could startle the rider. There may be good reason for the bicyclist to be riding in the travel lane, such as roadway hazards not visible to motorists. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/39 "2008-11-02T22:10:30Z")
Isn’t the cyclist in this scenario supposed to pass the car (turning into the driveway) on the LEFT? IOW, go around the car? Why is the cyclist attempting to pass the car on the right? The car has signaled and has slowed–it’s obviously going to turn. In fact, the car stops, to wait to see where the cyclist is going. Wouldn’t the prudent thing be for the cyclist to move around the car (to the left) after checking for traffic behind them? Or come to a stop and allow the car to complete its turn? I don’t see why this is all on the car. The cyclist needs to maneuver and communicate with the driver, no? But I do agree that sometimes courtesy just gets in the way on the road. Sad, but true. Regardless, the cyclist shouldn’t have gotten nasty. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480/40 "2008-11-02T22:19:15Z")
> [@whatami](#): > > I wonder if that’s causing some confusion here. In Seattle and Portland, and other large cities in the NW, there are usually bike lanes in the city. Those are for the bikes to use and are generally on the right hand side of the lane for cars. Therefore, if you are in the righthand lane, but need to turn into a driveway, there may be a bike lane on your right still. > > I’m not sure what the laws are in Oregon or Washington in this situation, but I’d bet they address the appropriate way to handle it. Actually, based on this, my answer is probably wrong if there was a posted bike lane between the car lane and the curb. I would expect bikers to have a right of way in their lane, and cars to not cut across it until the bike lane is cleared. So, was there a bike lane? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bicyclists-what-did-i-do-wrong/470480.md?page=3)