# Biden forces schools and colleges to allow biological males to compete in women's sports **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2021, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098 "2021-01-21T15:17:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/243 "2021-01-24T08:57:22Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Probably similar conditions will be set for lower levels of sport as well. > > e.g. > > > **International Olympic Committee** > > > > Transmen (FTM): > > > > shall be permitted to compete in the male category of International Competitions upon production of a sex recognition certificate or other form of identification of sex confirming that he is recognized in law as a male (passport, identity card, etc.) and provided that he is otherwise eligible to compete in accordance with the Rules and Regulations. > > > > Transwomen (MTF): > > > > - requires documentation of surgery and notification to IAAF > > - consultation with a panel of medical experts > > - endocrine assessment While I often find myself in total agreement with you, that does not appear to be the current stance of the IOC. In fact, your full list links to a document which specifically states that surgery is not a requirement. This is a summary of the current state: > 1. Those who transition from female to male are eligible to compete in the male category without restriction. > > 2. Those who transition from male to female are eligible to compete in the female category under the following conditions: Athletes meeting this loosened criteria were allowed to compete in the Rio Olympics in 2016. As far as I’m aware, there were _ **zero** _ trans athletes in the competition. This isn’t in response to you, but to those who think this is a big deal. Perhaps we should simply see if this is a problem first and then deal with it, much like the trans women in the women’s restroom. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/244 "2021-01-24T09:15:10Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > that does not appear to be the current stance of the IOC I quoted that from the Transathlete site. Their information may be out of date. > [@DMC](#): > > Perhaps we should simply see if this is a problem first and then deal with it Yes, definitely. The fear that any random guy could simply declare that he self-identifies as female, and then win the 100m race and shower in the girls locker room is totally unfounded. Not even the most ‘extreme’ trans advocates are saying that should be allowed. Whether genuine trans students in school sports will prove to be a problem – a problem more serious than exclusion and discrimination – remains to be seen, but I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/245 "2021-01-24T10:39:49Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Even if it turns out that transgirls have overwhelming biological advantages over cisgirls, is this actually a problem? Is it any more of a real problem than the fact that tallgirls have overwhelming biological advantages over shortgirls? This is the same disingenuous argument that always comes up. We don’t have separate leagues for tall girls and short girls. We do have separate leagues for male-bodied people and female-bodied people, because otherwise the latter would have no chance of winning in any sport ever. That is why women fought to have separate sports and scholarships, rather than the empty ‘right’ to compete for the men’s ones. Tall girls have a natural advantage. Trans girls have an artificial advantage if they are allowed to compete in a league against cis girls, same as an adult would if allowed to compete against 14 year olds. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/246 "2021-01-24T10:52:52Z")
From this: > [@DSeid](#): > > > One of the plaintiffs, Chelsea Mitchell, won two state indoor title races over Miller this year. … it doesn’t sound like being a transgirl is an _overwhelming_ biological advantage in that case at all. At least, not by any definition of “overwhelming” I know. > [@DemonTree](#): > > We don’t have separate leagues for tall girls and short girls. No, just a league that’s _all_ tall girls. A distinction without difference. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Tall girls have a natural advantage. …in a league _set up to give them one_. That’s not actually “natural” by any measure. It’s a different sort of arbitrary, and no less artificial an advantage than that you claim trans girls have. Male separated from female isn’t some sort of natural law, so female-only leagues are just as artificial as any other grouping you care to decry. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/247 "2021-01-24T11:40:13Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > [Transathlete.com](http://Transathlete.com) has a short document that is a must-read for this discussion: There is nothing in that document about requiring hormone therapy. Do you understand the magnitude of the difference in ability between male and female bodies after puberty? Boys still in high school regularly break women’s Olympic records: > **[If boys are faster than elite female athletes, should males compete in female...](https://boysvswomen.com/)** > > See how the best high school boys stack up against the best female Olympians and World Record holders in Track & Field and Swimming. Gender identity has no effect on athletic ability, only hormone therapy can reduce the gap. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/248 "2021-01-24T12:03:09Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > There is nothing in that document about requiring hormone therapy. Sure, because you can’t _require_ hormone therapy for teenagers, and anyway schools can’t be expected to run tests. But we’re talking about a small number of genuine trans students (as verified by a formal process at state level), for non-professional, recreational sports. So is it really such a big deal at this level? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/249 "2021-01-24T13:41:10Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > But we’re talking about a small number of genuine trans students (as verified by a formal process at state level), for non-professional, recreational sports. So is it really such a big deal at this level? Between .5 and 1% of the population, which isn’t that rare. And without hormone therapy the advantage is so large that many trans girls will be near or at the top of their sport. Winning competitions, setting records impossible for any cis girl to ever match, potentially taking scholarships they would never have earned in an equal competition. That’s unfair and will be extremely discouraging for cis girls in sport; why bother training hard if you have no chance to win? Honestly, I think it may also be bad for transgender rights by causing resentment and appearing obviously unfair to onlookers. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/250 "2021-01-24T13:43:17Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > This is the same disingenuous argument that always comes up. > … > Tall girls have a natural advantage. Trans girls have an artificial advantage if they are allowed to compete in a league against cis girls It’s glorious, how you use “disingenuous” to describe my argument, and then four sentences later slip in the idea that transgirls are in some sense artificial. No. There’s no “artificial” advantage in structuring leagues in a way that improves the health of transgirls, any more than there’s an artificial advantage in structuring leagues in any other way that happens to allow one group to leverage a _natural_ biological advantage. This EO in no way furthers the artificial nature of any league. Your slippery slope comparison of allowing transgirls (a tiny percentage of the populace) to compete with cisgirls, to allowing all boys to compete with all girls, is absurd. Again, you haven’t demonstrated that bad things are happening where this situation already occurs. You’re fighting an imaginary problem. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/251 "2021-01-24T13:44:29Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Honestly, I think it may also be bad for transgender rights by causing resentment and appearing obviously unfair to onlookers. This is paternalistic, condescending nonsense, akin to people who claim to oppose affirmative action out of their concern for the reputation of the beneficiaries. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/252 "2021-01-24T14:02:42Z")
**Modnote** : @Left_Hand_of_Dorkness; Pull back from making the arguments against the posters. > [@DemonTree](#): > > This is the same disingenuous argument that always comes up. Same note. _This is just a guidance, not a warning. Nothing on your permanent record._ * * * _Thread will be closed for a few minutes as I review further._ _Thank you for your patience._ ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/253 "2021-01-24T14:02:47Z")
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**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/254 "2021-01-24T14:04:35Z")
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**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/255 "2021-01-24T14:05:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Again, you haven’t demonstrated that bad things are happening where this situation already occurs. You’re fighting an imaginary problem. Again you seem to cherry pick what posts you read. Ask the cis girls in HS who have to make room for trans girls on the field and in the locker room if they feel like this situation is imaginary. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/256 "2021-01-24T14:07:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It’s glorious, how you use “disingenuous” to describe my argument, and then four sentences later slip in the idea that transgirls are in some sense artificial. That is not what I said. It is the advantage that is artificial, not the person. A 20 year old is not artificial, but they would have an artificial advantage if they competed against 14 year olds. The 20 year old could be a worse athlete and still win. Similarly a heavyweight boxer would have an unfair advantage if allowed to compete against middleweights instead of heavyweights. We divide leagues to ensure fairness and safety. Making an exception for some people defeats that purpose and is unfair to those in the ‘lower’ league. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Your slippery slope comparison of allowing transgirls (a tiny percentage of the populace) to compete with cisgirls, to allowing all boys to compete with all girls, is absurd. Again, you haven’t demonstrated that bad things are happening where this situation already occurs. You’re fighting an imaginary problem. I am claiming nothing of the sort. And I already linked to two articles that show trans girls achieving unusual success, despite some of them already being on hrt. Note there are no trans boys winning competitions and setting new state records. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is paternalistic, condescending nonsense, akin to people who claim to oppose affirmative action out of their concern for the reputation of the beneficiaries. I don’t agree with them, but there are people on social media saying this is a good thing as it will turn people against the idea. Take it as you will. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/257 "2021-01-24T14:16:12Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > We don’t have separate leagues for tall girls and short girls We actually do, we just don’t call it that. We have club sports and varsity sports. Speaking as a person who is not athletically endowed, i know there are leagues that i can play in, and ones i can’t play in. (And none that i will win in. But i can be accepted and participate in some.) And i think it would be appropriate for different sports and different leagues within a sport to have different rules in this area. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/258 "2021-01-24T14:17:52Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And i think it would be appropriate for different sports and different leagues within a sport to have different rules in this area. I agree, that makes sense. Hopefully that is what we will eventually end up with. When it’s serious competitions with serious effects on people’s lives, we need strict rules. When it’s playing for fun and fitness, we need rules ensuring everyone can play and have fun. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/259 "2021-01-24T14:36:35Z")
It’s a good thing that Biden, in his infinite wisdom, created an Executive Order to allow just that. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/260 "2021-01-24T14:51:37Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Between .5 and 1% of the population, which isn’t that rare. And without hormone therapy the advantage is so large that many trans girls will be near or at the top of their sport. So this seems to be your issue at this point, which I will actually try to restate given other posts you’ve made. Your concern is that there will be an issue of individuals identifying as girls who have progressed through male puberty without any hormonal intervention who will dominate their sports. And you accept, I think, the large harms to the 0.5 to 1% of students who are currently the target of transphobic regulations in many states, regulations that reject any gender identification other that what is on the birth certificate, categorically. The impacts of these existing rules is of huge negative harms occurring now and I think you accept that. Yes? Yet in the multiple states that have no proof of hormonal intervention as gating, that feared many transgirls without hormonal intervention dominating their sports _has simply not happened_. Note that even in the Connecticut case, at the elite level, the only _two_ transgirl elite athletes of the state that are alleged to have had any impact at all - both had been having hormonal interventions. So far the real world occurance of harms caused by transgirls who have progressed through male puberty without any hormonal intervention be nearing or at the top of their sport, taking the scholarships, etc., is a harm that does not seem to have occurred. Your perfect would eliminate any risk of such unfairness even if such currently may not occur at all, and if it cannot be perfect you would rather we not accomplish the much larger good. I’d ask you to reconsider that stance. What’s wrong though, you may ask, with then requiring some certification that full male pubertal progression is not occurring (by medical testing of prepubertal status or physician certification of medical transition in progress)? (Which is not prohibited by the Executive Order.) Two issues to consider. First, having to provide such evidence is stigmatizing. Second, the medical decision for a transgender individual to block puberty or to transition medically are big ones for them to make, with risks and benefits to consider and balance, and creating a situation that any sports participation in the gender of their identification requires such a step would be coercive, placing pressure to make a choice to take steps to medically transition or to delay puberty that they might not otherwise be willing to yet make. It would taint the consent process. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/261 "2021-01-24T14:58:00Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > When it’s playing for fun and fitness, we need rules ensuring everyone can play and have fun. What do you think an EO about _school_ sports is primarily concerned with? ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/262 "2021-01-24T15:10:58Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yet in the multiple states that have no proof of hormonal intervention as gating, that feared many transgirls without hormonal intervention dominating their sports _has simply not happened_ . Note that even in the Connecticut case, at the elite level, the only _two_ transgirl elite athletes of the state that are alleged to have had any impact at all - both had been having hormonal interventions. > > So far the real world occurance of harms caused by transgirls who have progressed through male puberty without any hormonal intervention be nearing or at the top of their sport, taking the scholarships, etc., is a harm that does not seem to have occurred. But is that because the transwomen without hormone therapy have not _yet_ played women’s sports, or because they are playing women’s sports and do not have an impact? If all the transwomen in women’s sports are on hormone therapy because that’s a personal choice they are making, that doesn’t necessarily mean that all transwomen in sport will always be on hormone therapy. Some transwomen may choose to not be on hormone therapy or make any similar changes. It seems like the effect of trans athlete ability in sports can be evaluated statistically. If hormone therapies and similar treatments mean that transwomen are essentially athletically equal to genetically XX athletic norms, then the distribution of trans athletes in the results should be statistically normal. But if they tend to finish towards the top, then that would seem indicate there is some unique athletic benefit to them. From the stories that have been shared about the trans athletes winning weightlifting, biking, running, etc. races, it seems to me that transwomen are statistically better athletes than their genetic XX competitors. Since they are such a tiny percentage of the total athlete population, it seems odd that a relatively large number of them end up at the top. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098.md?page=14)