# Biden forces schools and colleges to allow biological males to compete in women's sports **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2021, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098 "2021-01-21T15:17:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/263 "2021-01-24T15:42:03Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > From the stories that have been shared about the trans athletes winning weightlifting, biking, running, etc. races, it seems to me that transwomen are statistically better athletes than their genetic XX competitors. Since they are such a tiny percentage of the total athlete population, it seems odd that a relatively large number of them end up at the top. There is no scientific/statistical value in this. Stories do not equal anything but points of data at best. **Modhat on** : Also this post is treading away from the op by the end. Do not go further down this line. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/264 "2021-01-24T17:37:51Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > is that because the transwomen without hormone therapy have not _yet_ played women’s sports, or because they are playing women’s sports and do not have an impact? With the phrase “transwomen” being used, I think it is important to remind ourselves that we are speaking of trans girls and young women - rules that apply K to 12. That said … More than anything else I really don’t care why. The fact is the feared huge tidal wave of individuals who have gone through male puberty and having no hormonal transition to female status competing as girls on the basis of identification taking over the top spots and scholarship opportunities by way of unfair advantages is not happening. I would not have expected it to. I _think_ the _n_ of teen transgirls with a sincere consistent committed identity as female who have _not_ opted for some medical intervention as they begin to significantly progress through male puberty is somewhat small and getting smaller due to more parents accepting their childrens’ trans-status, the wider access to expert transgender clinics for the population, and consistent with current best practice guidelines in the United States. Of them the number who have more than a casual recreational interest in sports is of course smaller yet, and of them those who have enough talent and dedication that such would be of meaningful impact even smaller yet. > [@filmore](#): > > It seems like the effect of trans athlete ability in sports can be evaluated statistically. Yes. Doing that is called “a study” and articles reviewing the studies done to date have been linked to. In terms of athletics they, to date, have centered on _adults_ who have _completed_ male puberty, and do not offer simple bright line conclusions. The current relative lack of the statistical evidence specific for those in High School and below demonstrating any unique benefit to transgirl athletes is of course not solid evidence of lack of impact. It is possible that some exists and has some impact that is just small enough as to not be all that apparent. Given the real ongoing harms caused by exclusionary policies, the continuing of current exclusionary policies should require more than that possibly maybe policies less exclusionary might cause some much smaller but non-zero harms. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/265 "2021-01-24T18:07:19Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I would not have expected it to. I _think_ the _n_ of teen transgirls with a sincere consistent committed identity as female who have _not_ opted for some medical intervention as they begin to significantly progress through male puberty is somewhat small and getting smaller due to more parents accepting their childrens’ trans-status, the wider access to expert transgender clinics for the population, and consistent with current best practice guidelines in the United States. To add to this: those kids who _haven’t_ started medical intervention are likely on average to be less open with their trans status: transphobic parents will likely be a common factor for such children. So trans kids who haven’t started medical intervention aren’t going to be heavily represented among the group of trans kids asking to compete in sports according to their gender. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/266 "2021-01-24T20:32:46Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Maybe if we’re talking about the state finals. It doesn’t sound so bad when we’re talking about girls who are coming in 12th or 13th place but what about those closer to the top but not quite there? It’s very possible that cis girls who would have come in 4th or 5th place in competition will now come in 6th or 7th place when competing against trans girls. It is also very possible that if we ban runners with the 577RR genotype then many others lower would have placed a lot better. Some people are, _genetically_- better than others at certain types of sports. That is just the way the DNA rolls. I wouldnt call it “unfair”. Again, I dont see the problem here. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/267 "2021-01-24T20:40:02Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Excluding transgender athletes from participation doesn’t exactly sit well with me but neither does the idea of cis gender girls having an unfair disadvantage. I guess I’ll just have to accept that whatever best solution we find is going to leave someone out in the cold. No, we dont have to leave anyone “out in the cold”. Look, maybe transgirls have a tsmal advantage. But that doesnt mean that allowing them to participate bans all non-transgirls. They still get to _participate,_ _maybe_ at a slight disadvantage in winning a top prize. But if you ban transgirls, they dont get to participate at all. And the whole idea of primary and high schools sports isnt _winning_, it’s _participation._ Getting their butts out there doing something instead of sitting around all day watching TV or texting or playing computer games. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/268 "2021-01-24T20:43:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The child whose parents are both 6’6" is straight up likelier to win basketball games than the child whose parents are both 5’0". > > Another huge category of unearned advantages is socioeconomic: a child whose parents can afford expensive lessons with one-on-one coaches and can take a child to all the meets has a ridiculous advantage over a child whose parents can’t afford such luxuries. Good point. Any kid over 6’ tall should be banned, and kid whose parents earn more than $70000 should also be banned. Any kid with the 577RR genotype should also be banned. See how stupid this gets? Just let them all play. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/269 "2021-01-24T20:52:52Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > We segregate sports on the basis of sex because it’s generally acknowledged that males have an overwhelming advantage against females when it comes to athletics. If that’s not a problem, why not just get rid of girl’s sports altogether By no means is that the only reason. There is also the point that immature males will try to play grab-ass and worse. That of course unisex locker rooms and showers arent a good idea for kids. And so forth. In fact, in High school and Primary schools, the reason the two are differentiated has almost nothing to do with _males having an overwhelming advantage against females_ - which of course they dont in all sports. Gymnastics for example. Shooting, Ultra marathons, Ice skating, some swimming, most diving, equestrian, sometimes archery, etc. It’s only when sports are played for money (which includes the Olympics) by adults that we have to differentiate. So, lets ban professional sports, instead. Simple. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/270 "2021-01-24T21:45:40Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > And you accept, I think, the large harms to the 0.5 to 1% of students who are currently the target of transphobic regulations in many states, regulations that reject any gender identification other that what is on the birth certificate, categorically. > > The impacts of these existing rules is of huge negative harms occurring now and I think you accept that. Yes? What actual harms are we talking about here? Is anyone banned from playing sport, or are they just not allowed to compete against the sex they would prefer to? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/271 "2021-01-24T22:11:10Z")
**Modnote** : Parts of this are off-topic please stop. The grab-ass part especially. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/272 "2021-01-24T22:13:01Z")
Good point. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/273 "2021-01-24T22:17:34Z")
The harms of telling a child who identifies as a girl and who wants to accepted as a girl, and to be part of a team with other girls, that no, that cannot happen, that they have to accept a boy identity for the activity of sports. That stigmatization. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/274 "2021-01-24T22:20:07Z")
> [@chela](#): > > > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > Again, you haven’t demonstrated that bad things are happening where this situation already occurs. You’re fighting an imaginary problem. > > Again you seem to cherry pick what posts you read. Ask the cis girls in HS who have to make room for trans girls on the field and in the locker room if they feel like this situation is imaginary. No, because feelings aren’t the relevant metric. Harm is. Yes, we look at feelings to judge harm, but how harmed you feel and how harmed you actually are–those aren’t the same thing. For example KKK members feel like they’re being severely harmed by the acceptance of non-white people. But they are not being harmed at all. And, let me make this abundantly clear: I’m not saying the two issues are comparable. I’m not arguing that these cisgender women who feel harmed are bigots. I’m illustrating the point that perceived harm and actual harm are not the same thing, using a very clear example that hopefully we can all agree upon. I would continue to allege that there is way too much emphasis being placed in scholastic sports on beating others and being the best ever. That’s not the point of why we have sports at that level. It’s a part of school, so it’s about self-improvement and learning. What athletics in school provide is a way to be able to challenge those with physical ability and help them improve, using competition as a motivator. It’s not supposed to be the most important thing, any more than getting upvotes on Reddit is the only reason someone would post there. It’s an extra benefit, not the entire goal. Given that, dropping down a place or two because of some trans athlete (who we have not yet proven are inherently superior, BTW) is not this huge harm that people make it out to be. And, as others have stated, non-trans athletes could also come in and do the same thing–they can have a different genetic advantage. And yet no one gets upset about that. No one says the people who have genetically better oxygenation of their blood shouldn’t be allowed to compete, for example. We ultimately aren’t testing genetically identical people against each other, where the only difference is their training. Different people have different advantages or disadvantages, and we’ve been okay with accepting those in general. I’m not saying there is no issue, that there is no harm calculation. But we have to be wary of making it seem bigger than it is. Lack of inclusion is a bigger harm than losing a place ranking, because losing a place ranking happens all the time. Finally, I note that people have argued that black people may have some sort of athletic advantage for one reason or another. Yet you don’t see people arguing that a white athlete was severely harmed just because a black athlete outcompeted them. People don’t want to disqualify Usain Bolt from running because it seems his country puts out a large number of good athletes, which could possibly be due to some genetic difference. We don’t know, and we largely don’t care. We just don’t normally think genetic advantages are reason enough to not allow someone to compete. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/275 "2021-01-24T22:21:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s only when sports are played for money (which includes the Olympics) by adults that we have to differentiate. So, lets ban professional sports, instead. Simple. Let’s just stop segregating sports by sex in middle school and high school. Everyone gets to participate if they want regardless of their personal gender identification. I don’t see any downsides so this is a win-win situation for all involved. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/276 "2021-01-24T22:23:05Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The harms of telling a child who identifies as a girl and who wants to accepted as a girl, and to be part of a team with other girls, that no, that cannot happen, that they have to accept a boy identity for the activity of sports. That stigmatization. Regardless of my concerns, DSeid is right. It is downright harmful to tell a transgender boy that he has to compete in the girl’s division or to tell a transgender girl she has to compete in the boy’s division. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/277 "2021-01-24T22:43:39Z")
> **Summary** > > > [@Odesio](#): > > > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > > > It’s only when sports are played for money (which includes the Olympics) by adults that we have to differentiate. So, lets ban professional sports, instead. Simple. > > > > Let’s just stop segregating sports by sex in middle school and high school. Everyone gets to participate if they want regardless of their personal gender identification. I don’t see any downsides so this is a win-win situation for all involved. > > The harm is the same one that happens at the top levels: you wind up with fewer women being involved in sports. The difference in biology creates a sufficient difference that developing boys can often outcompete developing girls with less work. This disparity is large enough that it discourages many girls from even trying. > > I didn’t say competition had no value in my previous post. It does. It does spur people to try. It’s why sports teams have leagues, even ones that aren’t divided by gender. > > That is the one possible solution: changing to leagues with no gender divide. But then you have the negative side of competition rearing its ugly head again. Making the lesser teams is generally seen as meaning the athlete in question is lesser. If you have girls and guys compete with each other, and the girls always rank significantly lower, that has its own problems. > > That’s why they invented different leagues, to not have the girls and boys be directly compared to one another. Because doing that results in lower self esteem that discourages participation. > > That’s why there is a harm discussion to be had. It’s not at the individual cisgender female athlete level, though. And allowing trans women to compete with cisgender women is not the same level of problem as allowing cisgender men to compete with cisgender women. There isn’t the same systematic difference, and the science hasn’t even proven that the benefits of early testosterone persist across transitioning, or are an even issue with puberty blockers (which is what most people under 18 use, to give them time to figure out if they’re really trans or not). > > In this case, we have reason to believe we may be able to do this while minimizing harm to all sides. I still wonder how much people would object to trans women if they didn’t think of them as “biologically male,” or even realized that many trans women are intersex, since there are like 30 characteristics that all have to be the same to be 100% male or 100% female. > > For all we know, many top female athletes actually are intersex to some small degree, because people mostly focus on genetics and not the actual scientific markers of sex. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/278 "2021-01-24T22:46:36Z")
Relevant video and transcript for the above: https:// [Science Proves There are More than Two Human Sexes - YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT0HJkr1jj4&feature=emb_title) https:// nerdfighteria.info/v/kT0HJkr1jj4/ ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/279 "2021-01-24T22:53:13Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > There isn’t the same systematic difference, and the science hasn’t even proven that the benefits of early testosterone persist across transitioning, or are an even issue with puberty blockers (which is what most people under 18 use, to give them time to figure out if they’re really trans or not). I do not believe the current regulations in Connecticut require transgender athletes to have undergone any type of puberty blockers before or during the time they compete. I don’t believe that’s fair to the cisgender girls competing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/280 "2021-01-24T22:57:03Z")
Please see the Mod note above. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/281 "2021-01-24T23:58:40Z")
---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/282 "2021-01-24T23:58:48Z")
**Warning** for **BigT** for ignoring many many modnotes in this thread. You are also ejected from this thread. Stay out of it please. I am breaking your link and hiding your post above. Everyone stay on topic and don’t argue & rehash old issues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098.md?page=15)