# Biden forces schools and colleges to allow biological males to compete in women's sports **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2021, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098 "2021-01-21T15:17:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/61 "2021-01-21T18:55:14Z")
Is it continuing the hijack if I say I agree? 😁 ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/62 "2021-01-21T18:58:02Z")
Ha! No, I think that’s OK, and I will stop complaining about the hijacks since I’m not a moderator and this isn’t my thread. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/63 "2021-01-21T19:00:09Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Certainly lawyers will be involved in interpreting it. But, generally speaking, no, “banning discrimination on the basis of gender identity” does not mean that there can be no rules whatsoever regarding transgender participation in sports. It just means you have to meet the various bars regarding discriminatory rules that apply to other protected classes (race, gender, religion, etc). This is an important point. Just as we segregate competition categories now by physical characteristics like age and size, ISTM that we can fairly consider other characteristics that affect transgender athletes. I don’t know how that will all shake out in practice, but that’s what lawyers are for. Another issue to keep in mind is whether we could in fact solve a lot of potential problems just by adjusting nomenclature. If the point of segregating teams by sex is to give cisgender female athletes a separate space taking into account their comparative physical limitations, then you don’t actually have a “boys’ team” and a “girls’ team”: what you have is an open team and a cisgender-female team. I think transgender female athletes should have the option of playing on the open team without being officially designated “boys” and “males” due to their participation. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/64 "2021-01-21T19:00:48Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > However, it proves that some boys are not afraid of being labeled a girl if it allows them to compete. How? They’re not being labelled girls; they are still clearly labelled as boys/males/XY. They are not required or encouraged to become girls, be identified as girls, or in any way assume a female identity. So how does a situation where boys are NOT labelled as girls prove that they’re not afraid to be? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/65 "2021-01-21T19:03:15Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > However, it proves that some boys are not afraid of being labeled a girl if it allows them to compete They are not being labelled girls. They are just plain, ordinary, heterosexual (probably), male-identifying boys openly playing on teams that are mainly girls. That’s a totally different issue from transgender sports. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/66 "2021-01-21T19:05:02Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The whole reason sports was gender-segregated to begin with was to give something of a “safe space” for women. Allowing men to compete as women would be a blow to that. A clear case of you-can’t-make-every-faction-in-the-big-tent-happy. Given how much of an utter failure making “gender-segregated” sports a “‘save space’ for women” [has](https://www.insidehook.com/article/sports/usa-gymnasticss-history-of-abuse) [been](https://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/advocacy_category/abuse-and-harassment/) , perhaps as a society we should stop thinking in terms of “separate but equal” and instead in how to directly address the problem of abuse by authority figures at the root. With regard to enforcement of Title IX provisions and ‘transgendered’ women, I think it should be noted that the current scientific research in genetics, endocrinology, and neurophysiology indicates that biological sex is far less binary than what you learned in basic science class or even in anatomy & physiology courses. > **[Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia](https://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/)** > > Actual research shows that sex is anything but binary > [@""](#): > > A newly fertilized embryo initially develops without any indication of its sex. At around five weeks, a group of cells clump together to form the bipotential primordium _._ These cells are neither male nor female but have [the potential to turn into testes, ovaries or neither](http://www.physiology.org/doi/10.1152/physrev.00009.2006). After the primordium forms, _SRY_ —a gene on the Y chromosome [discovered in 1990](https://www.nature.com/articles/346240a0), thanks to the participation of intersex XX males and XY females—might be activated.\* > > Though it is still not fully understood, we know _SRY_ plays a role in pushing [the primordium toward male gonads](http://link.springer.com/10.1007/s00018-014-1703-3). But _SRY_ is not a simple on/off switch, it’s a precisely timed start signal, the first chord of the “male gonad” symphony. A group of cells (instrument sections) must all express _SRY_ (notes of the chord), at the right time (conductor?). Without that first chord, [the embryo will play a different symphony: female gonads, or something in between.](https://www.clinicalkey.com/#!/content/journal/1-s2.0-S0168952508002904) The article goes on to discuss hormone regulation differences between and within genetically identified XX and XY chromosome individuals and why there are “environmental, social and behavioral factors” (it doesn’t specifically mention nutrition but this is also a hormone regulator) within people of a recognized biological sex. While it is certainly the case that as an aggregate people with an XY chromosome makeup will be physically larger and stronger than someone with an XX chromosome makeup, there is significant overlap in the populations notwithstanding trisomy or hormone deregulation issues, which as much of an edge case as they may be still play into an overall discussion of how to make the system as fair as possible. At this point, if the intent is to provide a level playing field for athletics, it probably makes sense to start designating classes in terms of measurable physical abilities rather than self-identified gender, chromosomal makeup, or even hormonal metrics, and stop pretending that gender-based distinctions provide some special protection from abuse or unfairness in and of themselves. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/67 "2021-01-21T19:06:08Z")
Will these teams be separate but equal? Jokes aside, I can’t imagine a trans woman would be happy being forced to play on the open team rather than the female team where she’d undoubtedly feel more comfortable. Also, if trans women do indeed have a reduced muscle mass from hormone treatments, it seems unfair and dangerous to make them play with the men. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/68 "2021-01-21T19:09:49Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > This one starts with the claim that Biden will be forcing college programs to allow transwomen to compete with ciswomen. Neither the OP nor @Jimmy_Chitwood have brought a cite to that effect. If it’s not the case that Biden’s EO has done that, then this thread should probably be closed. I agree. Here’s the opening paragraph of that EO from Jas09’s cite: > [@](#): > > Section 1. Policy. Every person should be treated with respect and dignity and should be able to live without fear, no matter who they are or whom they love. Children should be able to learn without worrying about whether they will be denied access to the restroom, the locker room, or school sports. Adults should be able to earn a living and pursue a vocation knowing that they will not be fired, demoted, or mistreated because of whom they go home to or because how they dress does not conform to sex-based stereotypes. People should be able to access healthcare and secure a roof over their heads without being subjected to sex discrimination. All persons should receive equal treatment under the law, no matter their gender identity or sexual orientation. In other words, don’t discriminate against people based on their gender identity or sexual orientation. That’s a good principle, and I’m glad to see it made a clear policy of the current administration. If it turns out that we have to adjust some of the details in order to balance claims of competing rights, well, as I said, that’s what lawyers are for. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/69 "2021-01-21T19:15:30Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Jokes aside, I can’t imagine a trans woman would be happy being forced to play on the open team rather than the female team where she’d undoubtedly feel more comfortable. Also, if trans women do indeed have a reduced muscle mass from hormone treatments, it seems unfair and dangerous to make them play with the men. Well, being neither a lawyer nor a sports physiologist, I have no idea who might end up being “forced” to play on what team under a system that bars discrimination based on gender identity but also acknowledges the importance of fairly designed competition categories. What I do know is that a team that is open to all athletes who exceed some minimum size/strength/whatever requirements, irrespective of what gender they identify as or whether they’re cisgender or transgender, should be called an “open team” rather than a “boys’ team”. Even if it turns out that most of the people who play on it are cisgender boys. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/70 "2021-01-21T19:16:49Z")
There are no boys teams for field hockey. So, I dont see a problem. And I dont care about the people who do care, they are sexist entitled worrywarts. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/71 "2021-01-21T19:17:54Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > However, it proves that some boys are not afraid of being labeled a girl if it allows them to compete. However, it proves that some boys are not afraid of being labeled a girl if it allows them to _play._ ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/72 "2021-01-21T19:21:05Z")
I have yet to any situation where a man has been willing to fake a transition to a woman, living as a woman in day to day life, for any purpose. I’ve seen the opposite: there were the occasional women who would pretend to be men to get ahead in man’s world. But there were a handful of them, as it’s not remotely easy to do. I’m against being afraid of things that people have no evidence would even happen. That sort of logic has been used to excuse discrimination for a long time. On the other hand, the question of whether trans women have an advantage is a valid one. However, it is an open question. We know that testosterone helps, but trans women tend to take testosterone blockers. It’s unclear if having had testosterone in your system is enough, with some arguing that, after 2 years of not having testosterone, performances of trans women level out to the same as cis women, so that’s a pretty useful metric. As for the EO: I agree that the plain text does not indicate that it forces integration. If @Jimmy_Chitwood wants to make that claim, he needs to bring up other rules or laws that would make it so. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/73 "2021-01-21T19:22:42Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > They are not trans, which is why I said the situation was a bit different. However, it proves that some boys are not afraid of being labeled a girl if it allows them to compete. Without some kind of restriction, allowing anyone to compete based on their declared gender will likely lead to domination by XY athletes. No, it doesn’t. They’re not called girls. They don’t have to live as girls in their private lives. They’re boys who happen to be playing in a sport that was traditionally female-only That would be like saying Jackie Robinson was willing to be called white to play baseball. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/74 "2021-01-21T19:26:40Z")
Well I think in the scenario you described with a team that’s explicitly for cisgendered women is discriminatory, and it would “force” a transwoman to play on a team with a bunch of cismen if the “open” team is the only other option. Also, if the mere act of making a men’s team open to transmen results in it no longer being called a men’s team, is that discriminatory? I would think so. That’s a message to transmen that they’re not real men. I’m starting to agree with Jimmy\_Chitwood’s “plain reading” argument. This EO will make it illegal to discriminate in college sports based on gender identity, meaning schools will have to allow transwomen to play on the women’s team and vice versa. I don’t believe for a second in any of these ridiculous scenarios where cismen would pretend to be trans just to get a competitive advantage, but I also know that trans issues are very complicated and I’m happy to stay far away from any of that decision making. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/75 "2021-01-21T19:34:15Z")
If you guys can’t see how boys playing on a girls’ teams is similar to XX athletes declaring themselves to be women to compete then you don’t appear to have lived through high school. Go ahead and hammer me for it but that’s the last I’ll comment on it. Back to the OP, even if the accusation is accurate, so what? The overall benefit of the XO should not be stopped by what is essentially a small edge case. If it turns out to be a problem we can adjust the language, assuming we ever figure out how to solve it. Throwing it out because of an edge case would be like getting rid of all tax deductions because a few self-proclaimed billionaires pay $750 in Federal income taxes. It’s a poor way to govern. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/76 "2021-01-21T19:37:42Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Another issue to keep in mind is whether we could in fact solve a lot of potential problems just by adjusting nomenclature. Um… no. You’re not going to fool anybody or satisfy anybody on either side of the controversy by changing the labels. The labels are not the problem, and if you think they are, you’re misunderstanding the whole issue. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/77 "2021-01-21T19:38:08Z")
There’s a big difference between a boy being on a primarily girl’s team, and a boy “pretending” to be a girl to play on a girl’s team. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/78 "2021-01-21T19:40:47Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Well I think in the scenario you described with a team that’s explicitly for cisgendered women is discriminatory Maybe it is. As various social institutions start getting to grips with the science about sex and gender, including the fact that they’re not purely binary classifications, we’ll be adjusting some assumptions. > [@steronz](#): > > Also, if the mere act of making a men’s team open to transmen results in it no longer being called a men’s team, is that discriminatory? I would think so. That’s a message to transmen that they’re not real men. ? I think we might be talking at cross-purposes here. The point is that anybody who qualifies can play on the open team: mostly cisgender men, but also some transgender women. And perhaps a small subset of large and powerful cisgender women and transgender men as well. What gives the team its “open” designation, rather than “men’s”, is the fact that some of the people who qualify to play on it identify as women (or nonbinary). Not the fact that a small fraction of the players who identify as men on the open team might be transgender men rather than cisgender men. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/79 "2021-01-21T19:44:44Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > You’re not going to fool anybody or satisfy anybody on either side of the controversy by changing the labels. I don’t think that will solve all the problems, by any means. But it certainly makes sense to shift toward more accurate terminology just for its own sake. If AMAB people who identify as boys and AMAB people who identify as girls are both entitled to play on a certain team, then it’s inaccurate to refer to that team as a “boys’ team”. I think Stranger made a good point too: > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > At this point, if the intent is to provide a level playing field for athletics, it probably makes sense to start designating classes in terms of measurable physical abilities rather than self-identified gender, chromosomal makeup, or even hormonal metrics, and stop pretending that gender-based distinctions provide some special protection from abuse or unfairness in and of themselves. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/80 "2021-01-21T19:53:32Z")
First, here’s a cite. I didn’t want to use such inflammatory language in my op: > **[Day One, Biden Destroys Girls' Sports With Anti-Science Executive Order](https://thefederalist.com/2021/01/21/on-day-one-biden-destroys-womens-sports-with-anti-science-executive-order/)** > > Biden issued an executive order mandating that any schools receiving federal funding must pretend boys and girls are the same or risk losing that funding. Second, I’m not talking about boys pretending to be trans to win medals, or some kind of slippery slope. I’m saying it’s unfair to allow transgender people to compete against cis-women because they have various physical advantages, and women’s sport exists to give the group of people without those advantages a chance to compete on a level playing field. It is similar to allowing a heavyweight boxer to compete against middleweights. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098.md?page=5)