# Biden forces schools and colleges to allow biological males to compete in women's sports **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2021, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098 "2021-01-21T15:17:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/81 "2021-01-21T19:56:30Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > First, here’s a cite. I didn’t want to use such inflammatory language in my op: An editorial from The Federalist. Should have known. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/82 "2021-01-21T19:57:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I don’t think that will solve all the problems, by any means. But it certainly makes sense to shift toward more accurate terminology just for its own sake. Perhaps accurate terminology for it’s own sake would be something to look at, but that’s not the real issue. Essentially you’re saying that there should be one team reserved exclusively for XX chromosome cisgender people, and one open team. That simply won’t satisfy anyone. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/83 "2021-01-21T20:03:40Z")
Do you have a mainstream cite from a mainstream newspaper or legal source? A Federalist op-ed in not a good cite for factual answers. This was the only cite I found as well, and since no other legal or news sources are claiming this, I think it’s fair to assume that it’s bullshit (not your claim, but the article you’re basing your claim on). An EO essentially destroying women’s sports would be a bigger deal, generating more than an op-ed from a radically right-wing legal organization. If it were me, I’d get better news sources that don’t spend their time trying to enrage me. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/84 "2021-01-21T20:04:12Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Essentially you’re saying that there should be one team reserved exclusively for XX chromosome cisgender people, and one open team. > > That simply won’t satisfy anyone. It should be one team reserved for XX people not on hormone treatment, and one open team. Both could have people of any gender. It won’t satisfy everyone, but nothing will. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/85 "2021-01-21T20:06:48Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It should be one team reserved for XX people not on hormone treatment, and one open team. Both could have people of any gender. It won’t satisfy everyone, but nothing will. Since you’re hijacking your own thread, I’ll direct this question to you: > [@RitterSport](#): > > …I guess you’re saying that anyone who wants to compete with women would have to get a DNA test? Just starting at the college level, or high school, or would that start with rec softball or what? > > Otherwise, I don’t know how you screen out women affected by [AIS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/86 "2021-01-21T20:11:52Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > First, here’s a cite. As you rightly suspected, your cite is long on inflammatory language and short on any kind of evidentiary support that the Executive Order will actually do what the op-ed claims. > [@DemonTree](#): > > I’m saying it’s unfair to allow transgender people to compete against cis-women because they have various physical advantages, and women’s sport exists to give the group of people without those advantages a chance to compete on a level playing field. It’s okay to be concerned about potential unfairness here, and it’s okay to acknowledge that the issue of sports competition is complicated on a lot of levels and can’t be solved conclusively with a single blithe declaration that anti-trans discrimination is bad. What’s not okay, as per the Executive Order, is to just declare that transgender girls and women are automatically banned from participating on all girls’ and women’s teams, period. And what is also super-not-okay is for people like that op-ed author in your cite to use this issue as an opportunity for spiteful misgendering of transgender girls as “boys” and “males”. Somebody who refuses to refer to transgender women as women, or to transgender girls as girls, is almost certainly using concern-trolling about rights of cisgender women as a figleaf for their anti-trans agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/87 "2021-01-21T20:17:22Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Somebody who refuses to refer to transgender women as women, or to transgender girls as girls, is almost certainly using concern-trolling about rights of cisgender women as a figleaf for their anti-trans agenda. Good golly, who would possibly do such a thing? 😮 certainly not the authors of the Federalists? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/88 "2021-01-21T20:19:39Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Good golly, who would possibly do such a thing? 😮 Given the history of the Federalist and their leanings, I’d say someone who cares far more for trampling on the rights of the transgendered than protecting the rights of women. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/89 "2021-01-21T20:20:29Z")
Agreed, as well as people who really are concerned about the rights of women but were tricked by RW transphobic propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/90 "2021-01-21T20:20:52Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Somebody who refuses to refer to transgender women as women, or to transgender girls as girls, is almost certainly using concern-trolling about rights of cisgender women as a figleaf for their anti-trans agenda. Exactly right. I didn’t want to call out the OP directly in my first post, but that Federalist article was the only cite I was able to find for the claim as well. And it’s rather clearly using a small to non-existent problem, although one that will take some careful thought and consideration to address in the cases where it is real, to attempt to smear the entire trans-rights movement. I’m trying to give the OP the benefit of the doubt here, but basing your entire argument on an cite that you admit relies heavily on inflammatory language makes it hard. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/91 "2021-01-21T20:23:08Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Good golly, who would possibly do such a thing? Apparently, some asshole at The Federalist named Jordan Davidson, who AFAICT has no credentials in either law, biology, or sports physiology, but knows how to pander to anti-trans prejudice with clickbait hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/92 "2021-01-21T20:23:40Z")
Here is something I said in a recent PM exchange on the topic with another poster on the Dope. > [@](#): > > Sports is the one place you have a leg to stand on and I agree that trans women who have undergone male puberty and didn’t undergo any medical treatment shouldn’t compete in women’s leagues. Exactly how much medical treatment is necessary before it would be allowable is up for debate. But you have to be careful not to catch cis women with your rules (as the olympic rules about testosterone currently do, on occassion). > [@](#): > > There is some level of treatment beyond which I am ok with trans people participating in women’s sports. What that level is, I leave to people actually involved with sports to figure out. I don’t think the job they are doing now is all that great because as noted the Olympics for example use rules based on testosterone level which has disqualified some cis women. Cite for my point about the Olympics: > **[Olympic runner Semenya loses fight over testosterone rules](https://apnews.com/article/543c78d943144874a661f31e88c1f8e6)** > > GENEVA (AP) — The sports world's highest court ruled Wednesday that Olympic gold medalist Caster Semenya and other female runners like her with unusually high testosterone must take medication to reduce their levels of the male sex hormone if they... Any set of rules that forces cis women to undergo medical procedures in order to compete as women is clearly flawed. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/93 "2021-01-21T20:25:21Z")
Here’s some of the terms in that ridiculous op-ed. It borders on hate-speech to me: > This pro-transgender policy extends to male athletes who claim their gender identity as a female… > Biden previously promised to pioneer a radical transgender agenda, telling the mother of an 8-year-old, gender-confused child… The op-ed is uncited bullshit from top to bottom. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/94 "2021-01-21T20:29:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Apparently, some asshole at The Federalist named Jordan Davidson, who AFAICT has no credentials in either law, biology, or sports physiology, but knows how to pander to anti-trans prejudice with clickbait hyperbole. Per her Linked in, she joined the Federalist just this past August. September of 2019 to May of 2020, she interned for Congressman Bill Flores (R - TX), one of the wingnuts who contested the election results in TX v. PA. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/95 "2021-01-21T20:55:56Z")
Modnote: To All: Keep posts about the Biden executive order as it relates to college sports. > [@DemonTree](#): > > What if they allowed some competitors to take normally banned performance enhancing drugs to treat their medical conditions? That would be a somewhat similar situation. The above also appears to be off subject. > [@filmore](#): > > One problem is that the division of sports into men/women was designed around the genetic differences of the athletes, not gender identity. Forever, the term women was virtually synonymous with genetically XX people. No more of this either. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/96 "2021-01-21T21:04:32Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > ? I think we might be talking at cross-purposes here. The point is that anybody who qualifies can play on the open team: mostly cisgender men, but also some transgender women. And perhaps a small subset of large and powerful cisgender women and transgender men as well. > > What gives the team its “open” designation, rather than “men’s”, is the fact that some of the people who qualify to play on it identify as women (or nonbinary). Not the fact that a small fraction of the players who identify as men on the open team might be transgender men rather than cisgender men. I understand what you’re getting at, but it’s “civil unions” all over again. Transmen right now don’t want to play on a hypothetical open team, they want to plan on the men’s team, because they’re men. If there’s a good reason not to have a men’s team and a women’s team anymore, then make the change for that reason, but tying it to trans rights is problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/97 "2021-01-21T21:23:47Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Transmen right now don’t want to play on a hypothetical open team, they want to plan on the men’s team, because they’re men. Oh, I see what you mean, thanks for the follow-up. But I don’t think that genie is going back in the bottle. As a society, we have begun to recognize that we can no longer just assert “everyone born with a penis is a boy, everyone born with a vagina is a girl, boys play on boys’ teams, girls play on girls’ teams, no exceptions end of story”. But it’s not clear to me that it’s going to work to just assert instead “everyone plays on the team of the gender they identify as, end of story”. Definitely, if we have to have one single arbitrary oversimplified rule about gender and sports participation, the latter rule is better than the former, IMO. But ISTM it’s not likely that that’s where we’ll end up. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/98 "2021-01-21T21:24:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s okay to be concerned about potential unfairness here, and it’s okay to acknowledge that the issue of sports competition is complicated on a lot of levels and can’t be solved conclusively with a single blithe declaration that anti-trans discrimination is bad. > > What’s not okay, as per the Executive Order, is to just declare that transgender girls and women are automatically banned from participating on all girls’ and women’s teams, period. This change was planned before the election, and there have already been examples of trans students setting new state records in women’s athletics. Some states don’t even require hormone suppression. It’s a complicated issue which the EO just brushes over in a really simplistic way. I feel like Biden is choosing what looks good over doing the right thing, and girls will be the ones who lose out. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/99 "2021-01-21T21:27:55Z")
I think most of us would say Biden **did** choose the right thing. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2021, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098/100 "2021-01-21T21:36:04Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s a complicated issue which the EO just brushes over in a really simplistic way. You have yet to supply a cite that the EO does this at all. Your Federalist op-ed is utterly uncited, and is not even an article. It’s an opinion piece. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/biden-forces-schools-and-colleges-to-allow-biological-males-to-compete-in-womens-sports/931098.md?page=6)